New Leaders, New Futures: Embodied and Authentic Leadership w/ Tracey Gee

Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

women, leadership, color, question, diversity, people, experiences, leaders, learn, stories, book, organizations, called, lead, world, true, tracy, thinking, violence, feel

SPEAKERS

Bethaney Wilkinson, Tracey Gee

Bethaney Wilkinson  00:00

Hey, did you know you can officially preorder my book. It's called the diversity gap where good intentions meet true cultural change. If you are struggling to pair your good intentions for organizational diversity with thoughtful, human centered and story driven practices, then this book is for you. And the book I share eight key insights and actions you can engage to create a diverse and liberating organizational culture. I also share some personal stories and the research I've done over the past three years about why diversity gaps exist and how everyday people can close them. It is good stuff and I am so excited to share it with all of you. Visit www dot the diversity gap. com to pre order your copy today. Welcome to the diversity gap podcast. This is the book edition. My name is Bethany Wilkinson, and I am your host. Okay, friends, this is the final episode of the book edition of the diversity gap podcast. And truth be told, I have a lot of feelings about this, I started the diversity got podcast, like the original version, back in August of 2019, which feels like a different lifetime. And in some ways it was I was working full time for the nonprofit pilot people. I was living in the city of Atlanta, it was pre pandemic days. And honestly at that point, I was way less confident about my role as a content creator and researcher and podcaster and all of these things. But ultimately, this podcast and this entire project, actually. I mean, they've really changed my life. I've been so honored to be invited into your lives, your stories, your families, and your organizations through this work. And yeah, I mean words, words fail here. I'm just so in awe of what we've been able to learn together over the past two years and just super humbled, super humbled to have had this journey with all of you. Now for this final episode, we have arrived at chapter eight of the diversity gap book, like I mentioned before, and as has been the case for every chapter so far, there is a key insight for this closing chapter. The chapter is called new leaders new futures. And the major insight is this. No one is asking you to be perfect in your organizational culture and diversity work. We're not asking you to be perfect. We're asking you to get uncomfortable, to be creative, to take some risks. And to show up with consistency. You have to do your work. And again, this isn't about perfection. It's about committing to the journey to become new kinds of leaders creating new kinds of futures for the world. My conversation partner for this episode is Tracy G, who is a certified coach and facilitator. She is trained in the Gallup Strengths Finder, cultural intelligence and the inia Graham. She's also a member of the International coaching Federation. So she knows her stuff and is seriously committed to helping people amplify their authentic leadership genius. She has over 20 years of nonprofit leadership experience. And she just brings such relevant and incisive leadership document to the table. I hope you enjoy learning from Tracy as much as I did, listening. Alright, everybody, I'm super excited to share this conversation with you. I'm here with Tracy G. How's it going? Good. It's so good to be with you, Bethany. Thanks for having me. You too. And I did say your last name correctly. Right?

Tracey Gee  03:50

You did. Thank you for asking. It does get pronounced as gi sometimes. And it always makes me laugh. Yeah. Thank you for asking.

Bethaney Wilkinson  03:59

Cool, cool. I'm glad I'm glad. Okay, so I start all my conversations off with the same question. And that is, when did you first know that you had a race or racial identity? And then the second part is how did you know?

Tracey Gee  04:14

Mm hmm. I mean, I think I always had a sense of being kind of other. So you know, I grew up in California in the Bay Area, so I was around a lot of other Asian folks. But, you know, I just remember even things like, you may not even know like, you may be too young for this, but there was a song called California girls that like came out in 1965 by the Beach Boys and it was just like the song about you know, again, girls and Calvary and I remember listening to that as a little kid and being like that, but that's not me. That's they're not talking about me even though I'm born and raised in California. Um, you know, I think my my parents, they would actually like interpret white folks for us like they would They didn't quite use those words, but they would tell us, you know, you know, white parents, like give their kids hot dogs while they eat steak. And like, you don't do that, you know, I'm not quite sure, like, where they were drawing these, you know, anecdotes and experiences on but you know, they would explain to us these kinds of things. And the message that I got was, you know, we may have our language barriers or things where we are other but, you know, we don't need to be ashamed of our heritage. And we don't need to be ashamed of who we are. There's a lot of beauty in it. But you know, probably the most, you know, kind of crystallized point was the first time I was told, go back to your country. And I think I was in about fourth grade. And the neighborhood bully was picking on my little sister, and I got really mad and confronted him. And that's what he said to me, you know, he was like, my same age. And I just remember being shocked, like, no one had ever said that to me before. But it really, really hit me. And, and then, you know, contrast to that, like about a year later, my parents took me to visit family in Asia. So they grew up, they were born in southern China, but they grew up in Taiwan. And they took us to visit. So we were in Taipei, and I remember thinking like, oh, okay, like, finally, like, I'll be able to just like, blend in. But I remember going to the store with my mom, and the woman that was working there. Before I even opened my mouth to say anything. She was like, Oh, are you from the States. And she could tell just by looking at me that I, you know, wasn't born and raised in Taiwan. And I just remember being shocked, like asking my mom, like, how could she tell? How does she know? I don't even say anything yet. And she was like, folks can just tell. And I remember that moment being like, Whoa, this is, this is so weird. They're like, Where? Where can I go? I don't fully feel like I fit in, at home where I'm supposed to I don't even fit in here where like, ethnically, these are my people in my culture. But I think it was those moments that kind of brought that awareness to me.

Bethaney Wilkinson  07:12

Yeah. So it sounds like it's been a call, it was a combination of things happening definitely outside of you, you know, in broader culture, with music, and then and then this interaction with his boy, but then also in your family and in your home life. It's really interesting hearing you tell the story about that kid who said that to you and you both being the same age, I often remind myself, or I often think to myself, like the people from our childhood stories related to our identities, like the people who did harmful things, they're probably still alive. Like, they're still out here. You know?

Tracey Gee  07:47

I hadn't thought of it that way. But that's absolutely true. Yeah, he's out here living his life somewhere doing this thing.

Bethaney Wilkinson  07:53

Yeah. And so I guess it just makes me think of like, when people think, Oh, you know, racism doesn't exist, it passed away. It's like, no, the people who inflicted these things are still here. These ideas still exist. But anyway, that's not the main point of our conversation. I just thought that was intriguing. I'm curious to hear, how has your racial identity and formed your professional trajectory, if at all?

Tracey Gee  08:18

I love this question. Um, I think it's been extremely formative, particularly in this like, second half of my life. So you know, I'm 47, you know, classically midlife and I feel like I'm, what's beautiful about that is I feel like I'm hitting a level of clarity and focus about myself professionally, that I really am loving. But really, that has come out of some experiences a few years, a few years ago, in particular, that were really traumatic and confusing for me. And then in the midst of those things being told, like, Well, no, like your gender, and your race has nothing to do with what you're feeling. So kind of having my own experiences explained to me by white folks who were like, I think, well meaning and trying to lessen my pain and trauma, but then unintentionally, kind of making it worse. You know, so I felt like that kind of created this crossroads of like, Am I gonna? Am I going to double down on erasing myself? Or am I going to look to and listen and honor my experiences as women of color. And I feel like, when I started to learn how to do that, for myself, my whole professional trajectory changed as far as like, giving me more clarity, more focus, more freedom, and just a ton more joy. So yeah, it's really, it's been kind of a journey the last few years, but when that's really I think my racial identity has been at the center of that.

Bethaney Wilkinson  09:49

Yeah. Wow, that is such a powerful question. I'm even thinking of people listening to this podcast that are at an intersection professionally, specifically women of color, and I know we're going to talk about this later, but by Question of Am I going to double down on erasing myself? Or am I going to honor and listen and amplify? Who I actually am? That is, that's so powerful. I can't wait to circle back to that. Um, so I wanted to ask about this because I'm curious. And I think some of the listeners will be too. I'm curious to hear how the prevalence of anti Asian violence and racism has impacted your sense of vocation in the season. And I feel like this is a strange question. This might be me projecting, but I think about it. It's like, oftentimes the violence our communities are facing, it's not new, but like the amplification of the stories via the mechanisms of social media and things are new. Also, as it relates to like, what's happened in America, politically, like that's informed some of the violence that Asian American communities are navigating, but I'd love to hear how you've made sense of who you are and how you've navigated the season. Yeah,

Tracey Gee  11:02

I mean, I think it goes without saying that it's been exhausting and painful. For sure. And I was even thinking back like the, the Atlanta shootings, it only happened a couple of months ago. Yeah. But just the cycle of so much violence and trauma and so many different things. It is just, it's been a lot. And, you know, I think, like you said, it's not that necessarily the violence is new, but it's, we're just interacting with it in different ways, because of the prevalence of it on social media and whatnot. Yeah, so it's been, it's been definitely challenging. But, you know, there's a therapist who runs a an account called Asian Americans for mental health are agents for mental health. Her name is Jenny Wang. And she, she had this whole post about how, you know, struggling to cope right now isn't a reflection of weakness, but it's a reflection of how toxic Our world is. And I really resonated with that. And I think how that relates to even your question about vocation, is it's, it's really only served to strengthen my, one of my core beliefs that kind of undergirds my vocation, which is that our world is just in desperate need of a new way of being, and that it is going to be bipoc folks, women of color leading the way that's going to be what we really ultimately need. And so, you know, that's kind of what I how I hold that in the big picture. But also just, you know, on a personal level, I think it's really taken a lot of work for me to recognize, like, okay, it's, it's okay to feel exhausted, I need to listen to that, too, and honor that and learn how to care for even my own well, being in the midst of everything that we're all holding and processing. So I think I think about it in those two different ways.

Bethaney Wilkinson  13:04

Yeah, thanks for sharing that. And I'm gonna definitely look up the account that you're referring to, so I can share it in the show notes. And it's just so true. Like, it's not the pain and the exhaustion. Plus, just I don't know, the burden of navigating the toxicity of it all. And then also looking to the leadership of ipsc. And I just, I'm just saying yes, and amen to everything you're saying. I'm, so one of the sweet spots I've observed in your leadership, both via a retreat I participated in last summer, as well as in various moments since then, is your ability and I feel like it's just so unique. I don't see this in a lot of leaders. It's your ability to help women practice embodied and authentic leadership. And it's just been so affirming, in my own experience. And so I'd love to hear why that work is like why this work is important to you. Like, why do you invest your time and energy and supporting women in this way?

Tracey Gee  14:02

I mean, that means the world to me, obviously, that's like, the kindest thing that you could say that that means so much. I think for me, I feel like white supremacy and patriarchy lead to death, literal death, you know, we see that again, we're talking about the violence that that enacts, but also its spiritual and emotional death. And so, again, for me, it It goes back to you know, part of my training and change dynamics and change leadership is to look at systems from the point of view of trying to find the bright spots within them, and identifying them, locating them and trying to amplify those bright spots. And again, for me, when I look at our world and what needs to change and how we need to address just all the racism and misogyny that we see around us. I I looked Do women of color. And I particularly like you said women of color who have gained the ability, both internally and in their situations to lead in an embodied and authentic way, like they've figured out how to create that for themselves and for others, but I see them as the most significant bright spots. And, you know, I think there's so much power when women of color, learn how to not contort themselves to fit the system, because the system, frankly, is, is not great. And instead, to learn how to lead from that embodied and authentic way, I, you know, my conviction is, that is the kind of generative leadership that we need, on every level. So we're, whether you're talking about leadership that has to do with, you know, individuals, or families or communities or even the world. That's what I look to. And also, for me, I just really love women of color. You know, I think I think some of what you're picking up on, when I do when I talk about that, or when I'm around women of color is just, I really, I love and appreciate women of color so much. You know, so for me, it's a little bit like the difference for me right now, me, particularly in pandemic, and as a parent, like, getting food on the table is sort of a just, it's a necessity, you know, like, we have to eat, right, but when you think about like being around, someone who's a chef, who really loves food, you know, loves the textures of the ingredients, the unique varieties and the processes to help food shine. There, there's like, that's a world of difference. And for me, that's like how I feel when I'm around women of color, just genuinely love. The uniqueness of who women of color are, what they bring, how they lead, how important and special that is. And so I'm just I'm fascinated with the brilliance and gifts of women of color. And so I think that comes through when I'm doing my work or when I'm thinking about particularly women of color and leadership.

Bethaney Wilkinson  17:13

Yeah, I'm I'm wondering, and this kind of builds on that, as a coach, and as someone who invest in all kinds of communities with your coaching, are there things or ways that you do leadership coaching that are different for women of color than for white women or than even for white men? Like? Do you find that there's a difference? or? Yeah, talk to me about that a little bit?

Tracey Gee  17:36

Yeah, I think there's a difference in the fact that I think there's just a couple of added layers of interpretation needed. You know, so for, for men, for men of color than white women that a coach there, there is some of that, but I think for women of color, they're needing to unpack so much of the message that they've gotten, either implicitly or explicitly that, you know, the way you do things is wrong, usually, because like, what is considered the quote, unquote, right way of doing things is based on frankly, like white male mediocrity. So a lot of a lot of women of color have gotten the message, like your leadership is less than so there's, like, you know, I think I read, I forget where I read this, I'll look it up and share it, but like, there's a floor, that you have to, like, reach this level of excellence to even be noticed. But there's also a ceiling of like, No, you can't go beyond this point. And I think, when both are often managing both of those sides, because of the intersections of their identity, and so there just is that extra layer of of confusion and questioning that comes where I think I see a lot of women of color be like, Am I crazy, you know, am I am I not doing this? Is it just me and and I think often internalize a lot of those confusions and questions as reading as reading it as something's wrong with them. Rather than knowing how to articulate that, or or think about that. And so I just find, you know, for, for a lot of women of color, it requires that extra layer and again, other other folks with different marginalized identities will feel that in certain ways, too, but it's just I think, amplified for women of color.

Bethaney Wilkinson  19:27

Yeah, gosh, it makes me think of like, I just part of why I think your work is so important, is because I imagine all of these different scenarios where there are women of color who have a boss from a white racial background or a supervisor and just you speaking to the, the need for things to be contextualized a level deeper. I don't know that a lot of just everyday leaders and organizations are trained to do that work, you know, like, they're not trained to do that extra level of interpretation or or kind of translation. is the right word, but I'm just thinking like, okay, bosses, if they're going to leave, if they're if a person comes from a white racial background, and they are coaching, mentoring leading a woman of color in their workplace, then this is an essential skill for them to be able to interpret things at a deeper level for their team. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I'm curious if this was a coaching call for women of color listening to this podcast, women who are in leadership positions, but are struggling with self doubt and uncertainty about their role? What words of direction or encouragement would you give to them? Such a good question.

Tracey Gee  20:40

I have so many thoughts. I mean, I think I often start with wanting to redirect women of color that are oftentimes I find when women of color are struggling with self doubt, and lack of confidence or uncertainty in their leadership. Part of that is because they are maybe unconsciously trying to imitate others. And there's a reference point for what you know, true leadership is, but that doesn't really set them up for the genius of their own creative leadership. I see a lot of women of color get caught up in wanting that external validation. So something that I really try to help women of color do is to focus, learn how to focus internally. And so it's it's oftentimes trying to learn the skill of like, how do you, in your lived experience, feel when you are doing that thing, and finding the satisfaction in work that is genuinely energizing, and coming out of their true self, rather than those like external markers? So things are, you know, the external things are necessary to some degree, it's not just to pretend that that isn't significant or needful sometimes. But I think the ratios are our kind of off where we think that that's mainly where we need to get it. And instead learning how to focus on like, Okay, can you identify yourself on your very best day, you know, like I was saying about how, like, in school, we're taught math and science and language, arts and history, and we're taught skills on how to be employable, but we're not really taught about ourselves, we're not taught about, you know, our natural God given talents, how our brilliance shows up in the world, our capacity for creativity, and leadership that comes from that. And so, you know, where I often start with, with leaders, in general, but specifically with women of color is like, Look to your own stories. Look to those times, when you saw flashes of your own brilliance, where, you know, it's, it's like, you being your true self, you and your genius in a way that is deeply energizing and like getting to you. So it's, it's kind of that both and of, of deep satisfaction and joy, as well as impact and positive change for for people or things around you. And, you know, folks often have these experiences, but they have very rarely been taught to pay attention to them, especially not with the amount of care and precision that they really need to have in order to not just understand it, but know how to lean into that and replicate that and keep the momentum with that. So you know, I would say to women of color, look to yourself on your best day, you know, what are the experiences in leadership where you've truly made an impact to you that in a way that was joyful for you know, remember it, study it get categories for how to understand that, and that's a lot of what I do with folks. And again, and again, you know, what I hear women saying when they do that is like, Oh, I didn't realize that that was remarkable. Like I just thought everyone could do this, or, you know, they sort of underplay even the significance of it. And I get to be the one to be like, no, that's a huge deal. Not everyone can or does do this or enjoys doing this, like this is unique to who you are. So I would say you know, don't don't underestimate the uniqueness of your own gifts and strengths, and learn how to find and identify, again, particularly like who are you on those best days, those those times have experiences of leadership where you absolutely loved what you were doing, it might have been really hard or challenging, but you had an internal sense of of joy and energy as well as impact and look for that and try to do more of that and then I think confidence then comes from that internal experience of like, I'm doing something I was made to do. And I'm doing something that I love. And I deeply enjoy, and can't wait to do again. And it's that kind of confidence, where then even critical feedback, because you know, leadership is hard, we're always gonna get critical feedback. And that's part of learning. And that's important. But, but when the confidence that we have in our leadership comes from that internal experience of life and energy and joy, then it just, it hits differently. And to get that kind of feedback. It doesn't that's not the main thing. You know, the main thing is like, how do you feel when you're doing it? And? And then that really changes things. So I would say it's, it's much more internal sense of confidence. Where Yeah, when you get like encouragement or affirmation, that's really nice. It's like icing on the cake. But it really only is most meaningful because it's connecting to a really significant internal reality. So that's a long answer. But you know, I think that's, that's often what I'm trying to help women of color do when particularly around those issues of confidence and whatnot.

Bethaney Wilkinson  26:21

Yeah, that's so good. That's so good. I want to I want to switch gears in a way and talk to you some about organizations and leaders within the organizational context. I know you have a lot of experience and these like nonprofit values driven spaces. And so I'm curious to hear what do you think leaders in the nonprofit values driven space can do to practice liberation to create cultural environments where women of color can thrive in their authentic gifts? And where teams are able to participate and liberation from oppressive systems? This is a grand vision that I have. So So yeah. What can leaders be doing to chase liberation, not just diversity? Love the question. Love the grand dream, I'm with you.

Tracey Gee  27:11

I think the biggest thing I would say is learning how to listen. So, you know, fellow fellow leadership coach, Andrew Emerson, and I were talking about this, and she said something that I haven't been able to stop thinking about, which is she was saying, you know, when you're leading an organization, your people, especially the people of color, especially the women of color in your organization, they often have the answers you need for true liberation and equity. They know what you need to do, it's just that you're not always asking them or listening to them. And so you know, a lot of organizations, I think that when they fail, that's where they fail, they fail to ask, they fail to listen. And, you know, I think of it in terms of like, those leaders are sitting on a goldmine of insight, but they haven't created the practices and safety, to really ask and listen, and then also, obviously, enact changes based on what they learned. But But yeah, so I would just say, listen, learn how to listen.

Bethaney Wilkinson  28:19

Yeah, that's great. Because I think as a person who consulted the teams, I often find myself, I'm like, I really think that people who work here already told you what needs to change. It's like so because I can, like connect with the other leaders of color in that organization. I'm like, I know, y'all know this, you already know. So why are you calling and paying me to come tell you what you I don't I don't really know. Um, but you're right. You're right. People who are there already know what needs to happen. When you think 10 years into the future, and this is my last question before we get into the lightning round. Men you think 10 years into the future? How do you hope organizations will be different in light of the work that you specifically are doing today?

Tracey Gee  29:03

Hmm. I think I hope that organizations are truly learning organizations who really trust investing and develop their people.

Bethaney Wilkinson  29:19

That's so good. I keep saying that. That's how I feel about everything. You've shared that. It's so simple. It's so simple. Okay, lightning round. Are you ready? Ready? Okay, what's your favorite story of all time?

Tracey Gee  29:43

Okay, that that's a really hard question, because I love stories, but you're not allowed to laugh or you can laugh, I guess. But Moana has beenfor me. 

Bethaney Wilkinson  29:53

Yes, man. So good. Whoa, guys, okay, I'm not gonna break into song, but I definitely want to. That's a great one. What's the last book you read and loved? Oh, I

Tracey Gee  30:11

love this question too. I loved lead from the outside by Stacey Abrams, I think it's become my hands down favorite leadership book of all time. I rarely reread books. But I'm really looking forward to rereading that one. It's just leadership from an intersectional point of view you like part memoir part other stuff is just, it's fantastic. She's a queen. So that's amazing. It's an amazing book. And my second one is, I'm currently in about three quarters of the way through, but I love it. It's called braiding sweetgrass by Robin wall. kimmerer. So she's an indigenous woman, and she's a botanist. So she writes about plants and the natural world, but it's so much more than a botany or science book. For me. It's really I'm really drawn into the worldview and the paradigms of leadership and life and the world and being and a friend of mine called it medicine. And that's the best way I can use to describe it. It feels like medicine.

Bethaney Wilkinson  31:14

Yeah, that one's a great one. If you could have dinner with one person living or dead, who would you choose?

Tracey Gee  31:22

I think I'm going to have to expand the question, but Well, I I feel like I would want to have dinner with my own ancestors. I feel like the you know, some of the realities of immigration and language barriers and whatnot is I don't know as much about my own ancestors, as I wish that I did. So I don't know. I would love to be able to have dinner with them and have no language barrier. They'll ask like a million questions.

Bethaney Wilkinson  31:51

Yeah. Oh, gosh, that would be such a glorious meal, I can only imagine. Name one song that would be on the soundtrack to your life.

Tracey Gee  32:00

Super random. But a song from my fair lady, is I could have danced all night. And looking back now with a feminist point of view. I'm like, Oh, that was like a problematic story. But, um, my father loved it. And I lost my dad this year. And so it makes me think of him. And we danced at it at my wedding. And so I think that one would have to go on.

Bethaney Wilkinson  32:26

And then last, but not least, how can everyday people close the gap between their good intentions for diversity and true cultural change?

Tracey Gee  32:33

love this question, I'm going to steal this for like dinner parties from now on. I would just say, I think for me, it would be learn how to be wrong, and be corrected and learn how to do better. None of us is going to be able to be perfect in this work. I know. Part of my learning and unlearning is to think about not only where I experienced oppression, but where I am the oppressor and think about my own privilege, particularly as a heterosexual cisgendered married woman, you know, there's privileges that I have, that I need to be aware of even the as I'm processing, you know, being a woman of color, and what that is like so, anyway, that's just a long way to say I feel like it's learning how to listen how to address your mistakes, and learn how to see being corrected as a gift.

Bethaney Wilkinson  33:31

Great. Gosh, Tracy, thank you so much. This has been just so much wisdom. I feel like for every question, I was like, oh, my goodness, I need to write that down. I need to write that down. So thank you for your time. Where can people follow you keep up with you hire you to be their coach? Yeah.

Tracey Gee  33:50

I am mostly on Instagram is probably my favorite social media. So Tracy g.me. And I am sometimes dancing, sometimes sharing what I'm reading, I'm processing what I'm learning. So that's probably the best place to connect. Awesome,

Bethaney Wilkinson  34:07

cool. Thank you for your time Have a good one, for having me. Oh, gosh, Tracy, I'm just so thankful for Tracy G. And I hope that you learn something that you appreciate her her wisdom, and just the ways that she has really given herself to seeing leaders of color and women of color. tap into that unique genius. You know, we talk a lot about diversifying our organizations. But I'm wondering if we know how to really champion and support people who don't lead and the way that is considered quote unquote, traditional or quote unquote, conventional. And I think it's a both and right like it's both up to women of color and other underrepresented leaders to tap into that unique genius to figure out how to bring that to the table. But it's also up to those are leading other people to make sure that we're creating space for new perspectives, new identities, new leadership styles, new types of organizational genius, we have to make room for these perspectives to come to the table. And to really affect how decisions are made at those tables. It's just I don't know, I just get excited because the possibilities are endless. And I feel like Tracy gave us some Nuggets to start dreaming about what a truly more diverse and inclusive leadership culture could look like. If this contents been helpful to you, please check out the diversity gap or good intentions meet true cultural change. It's a book that is available at www dot the diversity gap calm. And again, if this contents been helpful, you can become a member you can subscribe and support the work of the diversity gap Academy. Learn more about that at WWW dot University gap. academy.com. That was a lot of information. But thanks again, thanks so much for hanging out with us. I hope that you're doing well. And until next time, may your good intentions for diversity need to true true true cultural change. Thanks friends. Bye