Lead with Courage w/ Sandra Van Opstal
Chapter 7: Lead with Courage - w/ Sandra Maria Van Opstal
Insight: People don’t just want a job; people want to belong.
Action: Your intentionality and vulnerability as the leader set the tone for how much belonging is possible. Your willingness to own your journey of growth and change paves the way for others working in your organization.
Now for today’s conversation, you get to learn from the brilliant Sandra Maria Van Opstal. I have known Sandra for many years and am always inspired by how her activism and leadership are firmly rooted in the context of her neighborhood and the relationships she’s cultivating there. Sandra is an author, pastor, speaker, and social entrepreneur who leads an organization called Chasing Justice. The mission of Chasing Justice to rebuild a just world. It is a faith-inspired movement led by a diverse array of people of color. And the organization works to elevate stories and pathways for justice practitioners and advocates. So after you hear from Sandra in this conversation, definitely check out the show notes to tap into all that this team is doing to inspire folks to get involved in addressing the most pressing issues we’re facing as a global community.
Transcript
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, organization, justice, sandra, diversity, lead, leaders, community, book, important, space, leadership, learning, operate, folks, living, assessment, influence, question, criteria
SPEAKERS
Bethaney Wilkinson, Sandra Van Opstal
Bethaney Wilkinson 00:00
Hey, did you know you can officially preorder my book. It's called the diversity gap where good intentions meet true cultural change. If you are struggling to pair your good intentions for organizational diversity with thoughtful, human centered and story driven practices, then this book is for you, and the book I share eight key insights and actions you can engage to create a diverse and liberating organizational culture. I also share some personal stories in the research I've done over the past three years about why diversity gaps exist and how everyday people can close them. It is good stuff and I am so excited to share it with all of you. Visit www dot the diversity gap. com to pre order your copy today. Welcome to the diversity gap podcast. This is the book edition. My name is Bethany Wilkinson, and I am your host Welcome to Episode Seven of the book edition of the diversity gap podcast. This chapter is focused on leading with courage. And the key insight here is that people don't just want a job people want to belong, your intentionality and your vulnerability as the leader set the tone for how much belonging is possible in your organization. your willingness to own your journey of growth and change paves the way for others working in your organization to do the same thing. Now for today's conversation, you get to learn from the brilliant Sandra Maria van opstal. I've known Sandra for many years, and I'm always inspired by how her activism and leadership are firmly rooted in the context of her neighborhood, and the relationship she's cultivating there. Sandra is an author, Pastor, speaker and social entrepreneur who leads an organization called chasing justice. The mission of chasing justice is to rebuild a just world it is a faith inspired movement led by a diverse array of people of color. And the organization works to elevate stories and pathways for justice practitioners and advocates. So after you hear from Sandra in this conversation, definitely check out the show notes to tap into all that this team is doing to inspire folks to get involved in addressing the most pressing issues we're facing as a global community. Now, at one point early in the conversation, Sandra's neighbors started to mow the lawn. So you'll hear a bit of background noise, but it's not there the entire time. I just wanted to give you a heads up that that's happening. Otherwise, enjoy this conversation between me and Sandra. All right, Sandra, I'm so happy you're here. Thank you for joining me for this podcast episode. How are you today? I am thrilled about the topic that we're talking about. Because I'm in the middle of a couple projects. And I have a lot of thoughts on my mind. So I'm excited to talk today. Oh, good. Good. Well, I start all of my interviews asking the same question. So I'm going to kick this off with When did you first become aware of your racial or ethnic identity?
Sandra Van Opstal 03:24
Yeah, so I think it was when I was about six years old. We we have lived in the city of Chicago proper, I still live in Chicago that we live in the city of Chicago proper. And I lived in a part of the city on the north side where there were I think there still are about 120 nations represented, but you know, heavily black and brown. But you know, all kinds of like different types of ethnic and religious backgrounds kind of mixed in together, kind of an immigrant pool, you know, people would move to that part of the city. And so when we moved to the suburbs of Chicago, was the first time I wasn't in a white space. And I realized that we were other. So some of that was just my own kind of awakenings. And you know, learning to speak English and understanding that, you know, English is the dominant language and all those kinds of things. But part of it was actually also just the trauma that I experienced as people in the neighborhood responded to my family. So yeah, so I would say like right around first grade, kindergarten, first grade, I can't actually remember when I started noticing, but the move was in that section and like in that time,
Bethaney Wilkinson 04:43
can you unpack or just tell the listeners, how do you identify racially and ethnically did I doubt if he said that?
Sandra Van Opstal 04:49
No, yeah. So I would identify as a white Latina. So my mother is from Colombia, which is in South America. My father is from Argentina, and they they both Have dominant European roots. So I know I have a mixture of things, but I present white. So I am a white Latina.
Bethaney Wilkinson 05:11
And so how would you say that your racial and ethnic background inform the work you're doing today?
Sandra Van Opstal 05:18
Yeah, for sure. My both my racial and ethnic background, I think primarily, first of all, just being the child of immigrants, I think that's the dominant narrative for me, like, being a child of immigrants and watching them build a new life, learn a new language, understand a new culture, particularly even as parents, like, you know, I remember, like, you know, what is a sleepover, you go to someone else's house, and you stayed overnight, that's just that was so foreign to them, you know, and obviously never got to go. But, so there's just things that we were learning. And so I think, then the dominant experience, for me, that informs what I do is actually the experience of othering. And how that felt as the child of immigrants. And as someone who was learning to speak another language. And then I think, you know, being in a, in a family where we all look different, even though we're all from the same DNA, I think, understanding how different how our racialized experience impacts the kind of opportunities that we have, and the relationships that we have, and the way people see us. So I think both of those things, you know, I kind of grew up in a situation where people were like, Oh, you look like, are you like Italian? Or Greek? Or, and then they would always come out, you're not Mexican? Are you? You know, like, and then that's obviously the only category for, for Latinos that people had, particularly back then in the, you know, at so. So, um, so yeah, so but it always came like, like, you're not Mexican, are you? And so I think that like informed those kinds of childhood experiences, I would say, are the ones that informed me the early on, when you're little navigating the world. And that's why even as a parent, I'm like, I hope I'm doing a good job helping my children understand their identity as biracial kids, and so yeah, I think that, that both of those inform it, and then culturally, for sure, I mean, the way I operate in most of the cultural values is opposite of what Western or white dominant culture in the US would operate in, whether it's hierarchy or time orientation, or, you know, collective versus individual, all of those values, I'm pretty much on the other on the other side.
Bethaney Wilkinson 07:44
Wow. Okay, I have a question about that, that I didn't prep you for, but it just came to mind. So as someone who leads and functions and operates from this place that is culturally oriented, not towards, you know, white Western ways of doing things, what does it look like for you to stay true to who you actually are culturally, especially in the face of some of the organizational pressures that might want you to conform to a more white individualistic, perhaps, Western way of doing things?
Sandra Van Opstal 08:18
Yeah, I mean, I mean, some things you just have to abide by, because I, you know, working in a corporate setting, or working alongside of kind of, for profit entities, you, you know, you have to show up to meetings on time, and you can't just be five minutes late. But I think I try to explain to people, if I, if I think what I try to do is, when I make exceptions, I explain where it's coming from, so I don't just like come late and be you know, they don't know what happened, I will say things like, you know, I was with such and such client or I was in such and such conversation with, with a neighbor, you know, with the immigrant mom in my neighborhood, I apologize that I'm late. I know, it's important for you all that I'm on time, but this is I'm operating out of out of an event oriented, you know, decision. So, you know, I apologize for that. So I think that's what I do, like I i understand the value that it has for them so I don't be little the value. But I I explained my choice, you know, it's like I know this has had an impact on the meaning that you know, you'll have to wait for me to start but I need you to know that this was the value I was functioning under over here. So that would be one of them. But I think around collectivism and individualism For example, I just function collectivistic Lee and in it, it it. I think that it bothers people sometimes because it's slower. So for example, even the organizations that I'm consulting with, or the the organization that I lead chasing justice, I'm a highly collective and so it bothers people sometimes that we don't get to an answer. Or to a solution quickly. And I'm like, we need to have everybody's voices here, especially if it's a decision around a particular justice issue. And I need to track down the correct person to speak on the issue, instead of just kind of executing the task quickly. So I think I am aware of the differences are there, which I think is the difference between white spaces or dominant culture and those of us that are underrepresented, I think we know that we're operating out of a different cultural norm.
Bethaney Wilkinson 10:35
Okay, so you have experience leading people and communities towards justice in a variety of contexts, ministry context church contexts, in the nonprofit space in the for profit space. So I'm wondering what gaps you were seeing that compelled you to launch chasing justice?
Sandra Van Opstal 10:54
Yeah, so the the things that are out there, you know, the organizations and the associations that I'm a part of, I think they're doing fantastic work. So I felt like they're doing great work for what they're trying to do. Does that make sense? Yeah, um, and I just, I was like, there is something there's a question of, you know, kind of a solution, I think, is, could be found. And so one of the areas was it basically an intersectionality. So it's like looking at all the intersections of who we are. So it's like, not only your race, but also your culture, your gender. And I got there because I was looking at the, at the census, and I realized the way that we ask about people's how people identify racially and ethnically is strange in our country, because what we ask of African Americans is for them to identify with their race. Well, we ask on the census from Latinas is for them to identify with their ethnicity. So actually, the categories are different. And Latinos, Latinas are black, and they are indigenous, and they are white, and they are mixed. But what we ask is, are you a Latina? Are you Latino? Are you this ethnic group? Yes, we are. And what we ask on the other side is, are you black? So it's really asking African Americans and all black folks, whether they're Caribbean or African, you know, or or Latina, to identify with their, with their race. And sounds like that's such a weird way of under like, we actually are, we are actually raised to see our one group with our ethnicity at the, at the core of who we are, and the other group with our race at the core of who we are, and try to So that to me, was like, we need some more work in this area of like understanding the differences and how they work together. And then obviously, you're in gender to experience and how that works. And then the other thing was the nuance of class, because I felt like so many of the conversations in anti racism in diversity, equity and inclusion were being had by people have significant levels of education, and in a certain social sector. And so what would it look like to actually ask questions about what a just world would look like centering the voices of people who come from different sectors, you know, different classes different. And so I just felt like, those were some of the things and then another one was just generational, it was just, it was time. And I'm, I'm not young, but I was like, I think I could gather a bunch of young leaders and see if we could build something together. And so I kind of feel like I'm an anti, I'm not ready to be the mom because I'm not that old. I'm like the auntie and I just gathered, you know, all the cousins. And we're like, all here saying, like, what would it look like to to realize, you know, rebuilding adjust the world.
Bethaney Wilkinson 13:53
For many of the leaders who are listening to this podcast, many of them are in spaces that are or have historically been centered around more dominant narratives, both racially and socioeconomically. And academically, all these different things. And yeah, I know that many of them have a conviction that they do want to chase justice with their everyday lives and leadership. And so I'm wondering from your perspective, for those who want to see racial and social justice become more of an organizational priority and the spaces that they have influenced, what are some of the essential steps they need to take?
Sandra Van Opstal 14:31
Well, in an organizational setting, I think the most important step, the first step is to actually get an assessment of some kind. So whether that's, you know, cultural intelligence or idi or whatever, you know, assessments, you know, an organization wants to use like, actually have a mirror that's brought into that organization. So they can see from the data and from listening groups and from feedback, you know, kind of 360 how the organization is doing. Instead of believing that you have an ideal, and you're living into it, but you never actually ask, Is this true of us? It's I know, it's an ideal, but is it true? And then so I would say getting assessment and institution is larger, I would, I would definitely encourage institutional audit. So someone that comes in and looks at, you know, from your, from your hand employee handbook to all of your, you know, kind of what's on your website, and what the data have on hiring and management looks like to see what what are the roles that people of color, women, you know, women of color play in your organization. And, and have someone reflect back to you institutionally, how you're doing, and then to get training around those, those holes that they find. So let's say for your organization, you find that you have really good, you know, intentions and you have really good desires, and language around it. So kind of your, your framework is good, but then you implemented criteria around hiring for management, that wouldn't make sense to, that wouldn't be accessible for people that aren't in a particular group. So let me give you an example. I was working with an organization. And they were trying to look at their their management, like why do we have so few people of color and women of color in our, in our management pool. And so I started looking at their criteria, and I was like, well, you have here that they have to have, they have to have given leadership and supervise in this type of setting. But most black and indigenous women of color are not going to have had that experience because of the patriarchy because of you know, the lack of of of access. And so if what you're saying is you have to have this experience in order to to be credible or leadership material here, then you are really closing that pool down. And I said I could think of 10 community activists, entrepreneurs, faith leaders in my community that do not have those, those criteria that would be fantastic for the roles that you're looking for. And then I told them, I wouldn't even like with my credentials, and my degrees, my books, my experience, I don't fit your criteria. So and I'm here like, as a consultant to you, you know. So I think some of it is those assessments. And those audits institutionally and organizationally, allow us to see that our intentions might be good. But the the things that we're valuing in our management or in our hiring, or in how we award people how we view success. They might be criteria that that don't work in a diverse setting.
Bethaney Wilkinson 17:54
Yeah, yeah. And I think it's I what I appreciate about what you're saying is that it's like for people for leaders are going to have to step back and really do the digging to understand why they're getting the outcomes they're getting. I think sometimes people just see, okay, this isn't working. And they don't know why, but they don't pause to figure out why. And so having someone external come do those audits come hold those assessments. Um, I just think that's a really simple, a simple way to get underneath the surface of what's really going on. So I'm wondering, for leaders who, you know, they they're doing the assessment work, they have the audits happening, how can they go about building momentum around visions for change within the context of their organization? And then secondly, what can they do about the folks who are on board with those changes?
Sandra Van Opstal 18:44
Yes, that That all depends on what your position is in the organization. Right? Yeah. But yeah, I have some ideas, I think, you know, from my own experience, being a leader in organizations, because I've led in three, like I've been employed by three different, you know, pretty large organizations. So, and in many ways, I never was I was leading at a national level, but I wasn't in what they would call like line management in the sense of like, I was a specialist or I was having to woo people into the projects that I was doing. So they weren't like essential, it kind of like if you're in an academic space, or if you're in grad school, it kind of be like, the classes that you have to take versus the classes that you want to take or are our electives. And so I was definitely an elective in most of the organizations that I worked in. And so I learned to have, you know, to operate out of influence leadership, and I think that influence leadership actually is effective for people that have, you know, legitimate organizational line management also. But I would say that the things that work for me that I would encourage people to do are to embody the change you want to see, like Be the change, you know, so instead of talking about Like, well, you know, this organization doesn't really care about x y&z and, you know, using your words, I mean, I would say especially people that are oriented towards justice, sometimes our minds move faster than our lives do. So we're reading and we're taking in, we're download, you know, we're kind of downloading all the information and we're spouting out these things about what's happening in Nigeria, or in India, or whatever, but we actually don't know. And we haven't changed our lives, we're just telling everybody else to change. There's, you know, now. And so, I find that actual change, like when I when I've gone to organizations, and been a part of organizations, and seen actual changes, almost always started with somebody that just started living, how they wanted people to live. And then they're like, people are like, Oh, why don't you do that? You know, why do you live there? Why do you spend your money that way? Why do you guys always bring your kids to these things? Like, why don't you do you know, and then from that embodiment, for example, if you're working in a corporate setting, and they ask you to present on something, and you actually bring in someone else and share your space with them, you're not saying, Hey, we should operate out of, you know, collaboration and shared leadership in this space, you're actually just modeling for them, what it looks like to share your leadership, and to share your platform. And to redistribute your money, whatever it is, you know, so I think embodiment is really important. And then I think educating others, so like using whatever platform or or space, you have to get information out to other people. So I do that, obviously, on social media, I do that as a neighbor, I do that with my children, I'm educating them, you know, I'm trying to like help the people around me understand who, who we are in this world and how we can make a difference. And so even this week, I sent an email to a bunch of younger Latina and Latino leaders about the the someone really important figure in our in our community that had passed away. And I said, if you have not read this person's books, you need to read them this person's book, because it's their philosophy and approach to caring for and loving the poor that actually has shaped every major development organization in the US. So this is us, y'all. This is our community, we did this. So I'm trying to educate them and let them know that we as as folks who often are underrepresented and invisible, actually have so much beauty to offer. And we need to bring that and take the risk to bring that forward. So educating others I think is important. And then activating people just like inviting people to opportunities, starting something and inviting others along with you. But it's hard to invite others to do something you have not yet done.
Bethaney Wilkinson 23:00
Wow. Okay, so you said embodiment education and then activating people? Yeah, yeah, that's really good. Okay, so I have one more question. And then I have lightning round. And this last question is a bit more personal in nature. I'm curious what you're learning about yourself in the season as a justice advocate, mobilizer and thought leader
Sandra Van Opstal 23:24
who in this season, okay, so I've been learning that my connection to my community really matters a lot. I have always appreciated and respected bipoc folks who have not only spoken on behalf of their community in spaces where they have access where maybe we don't, but when they've done so through a connection with our community, so I'm just learning how important that is. So I i've always like stay connected, you know, read books from within congregated in spaces where there are other folks of color but I think in this season, it's more than just like, credibility or knowledge. It's just like sustainability and resistance and resilience, you know, so I think for me to be around. Yeah, to be around people who have recently gone through the trek through Mexico, from Central America to come to Chicago and be in my space as a neighbor, to be around them as a very important for how I advocate for them and with them. And it changes not only what I say it changes how I say it, and who I see it with. So I think that's what I'm learning right now that it's very hard to be a justice advocate and not have proximity to our connection to the people, again, that are most impacted by systems of injustice. And to be in community, like, honestly, like, there, you know, I have a happy hour on Friday with my friends, who are other women of color across the country who are doing similar work. And we're just like, we need, like, we need to get together and we need to have drink. We talked about what happened this week. And it started during the pandemic, and we're hope we're trying to continue to eat every other week. But now that we're all, you know, moving around a lot, it's harder to do, but it really got me through the time. So I think I know, it's not it's not probably a surprise, but I think I just for me, community is the most important thing, both my own ethnic community and neighbors, as well as other people who are doing similar type of work. Because I do feel like I don't know if you get this a lot, but I feel like a lot of us are like, no one else is doing this, just like, I'm alone. No one has ever done this before. And I actually maybe it's Let's just be out as maybe it's the type of leaders that want to innovate the type of leaders that want to be in change management and change culture and, and start something new, like to reform and to kind of disrupt the systems, you know, we are the types of leaders that probably also are like, you know, no one has ever done this, you know, like, this is kind of, and it it isolates us and it makes us very lonely, but it's actually a lie. You know, we have been doing this for a long time. Yeah, our communities as black, brown, Asian and just sort of have been doing this for centuries. Okay, like, not new. Okay. Maybe how we do it, you know, the flavor of it is new, but we are kind of in a lineup. So it's both community present, probably and community past. Whose legacy are we stepping in? into? And then who do we have around us that will pass it on to So yeah, I just most of my time when I talk to people, as I'm listening to other activists in here in Chicago, as well, as folks that are doing stuff nationally, I know that we want to lead out of our distinctives. And that's important, I hope chasing justice is that I hope it's bringing a distinctive to the conversation. But I am not alone. There are so many other organizations that are doing just about what I'm doing in a different way. That's what I'm learning right now.
Bethaney Wilkinson 27:50
I often think about my ancestors who have advocated for change, and who have stood in their dignity throughout I mean, you know, decades and decades and decades. And I also am thinking about how am I setting myself up to give something of value to the generation that's coming after me not just my Instagram posts, but, but like a life and a legacy? of change?
Sandra Van Opstal 28:15
Yeah, that's what matters. I mean, I because I follow you, of course, I follow. I mean, I see. It's like you're living and out of your lifestyle, your messaging, why you're like, here, it's kind of like I'm living my life. You know, even if I post every day 90% of what I do is not online, it's right here, it's in my home. It's with my partner, it's with my children. It's like, what kind of children Am I raising? You know, that matters? Because if I came to my racial awakening when I was six, they're now six. Yeah. And so they're, they're like, watching all the things that are happening in our country, and in our world, they have questions, or their friends have questions, or teenagers have questions. So my neighboring is the primary thing I do as a person of justice, my neighboring and from that my activism flows and from my activism flows my influence. And so if my neighbouring is primary, my activism is kind of the result of my neighboring and my advocacy, and my influence, you know, is third, and we're living in a world where people just want to put up a YouTube site and become an influencer. I just there used to be doers, you know, people just did things. And when they died, they become famous. And so I just, I, I would really, I know, it's attractive. I know it's attractive via all the likes, but um, then I struggle with that too, because I'm like, well, maybe I'm what I'm saying is that important? That's a whole other topic. You know, like, maybe I don't have anything to say maybe it all the imposter syndrome of being a woman and a woman of color comes in. But I do think that what i what i would love to see them we're trying to do with chasing justice is to really see A movement of people that are developing an imagination to neighbor well, to become advocates and activists and then to influence from their doing from their being. Not to just say something and want to be, like seat Let me see how, let me see how many likes or shares this, this quote that I said can go Who cares? That didn't change your neighborhood? Wow. Um, so I think it is important.
Bethaney Wilkinson 30:31
That can be a whole conversation, that can be a whole conversation. It'd be really ironic if we had that conversation on Instagram Live.
Sandra Van Opstal 30:40
Here we are influencing. And I'm like, you know me, I'm on this Ergo I love it. My dad is a great tool. Yeah, my fear is that people think that there's what they're saying is actually the work.
Bethaney Wilkinson 30:55
Yeah, yeah. Oh, man, Sandra, this isn't so good. I have. Okay, I have a lightning round series of questions. Are you ready? Yes, go ahead. Okay, number one, what is your favorite story of all time? Okay, the Lion, the Witch in the wardrobe? Oh, that's a good one. Number two, what is the last book you read and loved? Michelle Obama's becoming? If you could have dinner with one person living or dead? Who would you choose? That was easy Mother Teresa. Name one song that would be on the soundtrack to your life. girls around the world. love these. And lastly, how can everyday people close the gap between their good intentions for diversity and true cultural change?
Sandra Van Opstal 31:45
I would say see the pursuit of equity as a lifestyle.
Bethaney Wilkinson 31:50
Yeah, thank you so much. This has been so rich, I'm really grateful for you. And I'll be sure to link to all of the good things you're doing online. Chasing justice. And more here in the show notes is always such a pleasure to learn from Sandra Van opstal whether it's through her books, or her podcast, or her sermons, or her organization and all of the leaders of color that she promotes and supports there. I just love learning from Sandra and I really hope that you found some nugget thought challenge or takeaway to carry you forward in your own organizational culture and leadership and diversity work. Thanks so much for listening to this podcast. You can pre order the diversity gap book over at the diversity gap calm and if you're looking for additional bonus content, please consider joining us over at WWW dot the diversity gap academy.com you can become a patron of our work, you can receive bonus content all year round. We would love to have you our patrons make this work possible. And I'm so thankful for each and every one of them. So thanks to Patreon thank you to all of you who are listening. Until next time, may your good intentions for diversity lead to true cultural change.