The Diversity Gap Season One Finale w/ Bethaney Wilkinson and Kayla Stagnaro

Episode Summary: In this episode of The Diversity Gap Podcast, Bethaney and Kayla sit down and talk about the personal and organizational tensions of leading this project. They also discuss their own internal journey during the podcast and revisit consistent insights and themes they discovered from the interviews. 

Listen till the end to hear what is coming in 2020 for the Diversity Gap project and how to stay involved in the off season!

Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, diversity, organization, create, kayla, question, learning, conversations, talked, feel, team, challenging, themes, equity, episode, lead, gap, season, work, podcast

SPEAKERS

Bethaney Wilkinson, Kayla Stagnaro

Bethaney Wilkinson  00:06

Welcome to The Diversity Gap podcast where we are exploring the gap between good intentions and good impact as it relates to diversity, equity and inclusion. My name is Bethaney Wilkinson and I am your host. Hey, listeners and Kayla.

Kayla Stagnaro  00:32

Hello, I'm back. 

Bethaney Wilkinson  00:34

Yeah, so it's the season finale. And I thought it'd be awesome since we started with an interview with me and Kayla, to kind of do another conversation. Just about, I don't know how this project has gone so far. And just some of the big themes that have emerged in The Diversity Gap project.

Kayla Stagnaro  00:52

Yes, let's jump in. Cool. I think it's been really awesome to kind of dive in and learn from all of these experts. And I think one of the things I'm curious to know, Bethaney is what have been some of the tensions of creating this project. May we start with you personally?

Bethaney Wilkinson  01:14

Yeah, yeah. Gosh, there have been so many. I mean, there's the general fact that I'm trying to create a public facing product, or curating this content on such a sensitive topic without total awareness of where people are, what they're learning. So that's just hard, because my, my heart is like, I'm kind of a facilitator, I want to sit with people and hear their stories and, like really fine tune content to meet people where they are in this journey. And while I can do that, to some degree in creating a podcast, you can't really do that, literally, for strangers, you don't know. So personally, that's been challenging. Ever since I was a little kid, I've always struggled to know like, where I fit and where I belong, racially, especially. And so being that most of my peers were white, because of how I was tracked in school, I always struggled. Am I black? Enough? Am I doing enough black things, whatever that even means? Do I see things in a way that resonates with other black people. But then I'm also hyper aware because of my context of the challenges white people have with this conversation. And so I think I've just been feeling that like, for everything, everything from creating the brand, to picking the speakers to just processing the content, it's all kind of I don't know, I feel the tension, like in my body of being in between spaces and in between communities and trying to create something that responds to so many different kinds of people and their needs and their questions. And so that's been really hard for me, because I, I want it to be more simple than that.

Kayla Stagnaro  02:44

Are you? Have you found anything to help you kind of work through some of that? yourself?

Bethaney Wilkinson  02:52

Yeah, I think I've just had to embrace it and stop trying to resolve it. I think for a long time, I was trying to like is my audience, white people or my audience, people of color, if I break that down into my audience, like, black people, like, who's my audience, and I've just had to be like, you know, I don't know. Let's create this and see what happens and see who comes and see who goes and what they think. And so I think I've just had to embrace that. I'm not going to be able to resolve it and, and that, in some ways might be a gift, because I think a lot of us are in reality. We're living these in between liminal spaces where we're not sure where we fit. And so I don't know, I just stopped worrying about it. Good. I keep worrying about this. I'm not going to be able to create anything.

Kayla Stagnaro  03:37

Yes. Yeah, I think any creative person can relate to Yeah, it's almost like being paralyzed and not being able to move forward. Okay, so back in the first episode, I think we talked about this being this podcast being for everyone, but not necessarily being like, diversity. 101 Do you feel still feel like that's the case?

Bethaney Wilkinson  04:01

Yeah, I definitely. I feel like that's the case even more so than I felt when I started. Because I, I think one of the gaps in the space in general is that people don't know what to do once they even learn the new things. Like I have no information, but we're so I think about when you're leading your team or leading your board or hiring people, like, I don't know, creating an event and picking people to be on stage. Like, I just feel like there are lots of places you can go to understand racism or to understand some of the like the problem, you know, and I Dude, we talked about the problem in the podcast. But I feel inclined to double down on exploring solutions, like really practical things and nuances. So I haven't resolved it totally. But I do still feel like I'm trying to get to how do we apply what we're learning and that something I want to keep focusing on?

Kayla Stagnaro  04:56

That's good. I think one thing I really appreciate about that is It challenges me in the sense that if there's not something I understand that I have to go do the work and do the research myself, and I'm not relying on you, or whoever this expert is on the topic, it's like, oh, wait, I don't know what that phrase means. Like, I need to, to understand this like concept as a whole. I need to go do that research myself. So that's been good. Yeah. Okay, so you kind of mentioned this idea. Around leaders and boards, let's jump into some of the tensions. This project has around organizations. Yeah.

Bethaney Wilkinson  05:41

Well, I would, I can't wait to hear some of your thoughts on this. So I mean, for for the listeners, it's really interesting to create a project on diversity and organizational change when you are in an organization that is going through so much change as we're trying to figure out what this work means for us. And so our team is pretty small, and has been on a journey of like changing and racially and ethnically diversifying our board. And but yeah, there have been all sorts of hiccups and hang ups and things that have slowed us down in that process. So Kayla, what thoughts do you have on what this has meant for our organization?

Kayla Stagnaro  06:17

Yeah, I mean, I think one thing that we've kind of come to the conclusion on, our team is committed to doing the work. And some days, it's really great. And we're making steps forward. And then some days, it kind of feels like, we're some weeks that kind of feels like, oh, man, we just took a few steps backwards. And it can be discouraging. And so I think the one thing our team does agree on, it's like, we were small. So we keep having the hard conversations, and really trying to understand one another. And we're trying to, I really feel like clarify our vision for this, and not just as a project, but for our organization. And so I think when you're small, you have the opportunity to make changes and create the culture we want, which is something you've talked a lot about. But the work is really constant. It's not just like making the decision. It's kind of making these series of decisions over and over again, and that you're going to continue to have the hard conversations, you're going to continue to lessen the gap in. And it's not just a way of like doing business, but it's a way of doing life that we're kind of all committed to. I think it might be really different in bigger organizations. Sure. But I think for small teams, everybody has to be really bought in. And there's a lot of vulnerability that's been happening for all of us.

Bethaney Wilkinson  07:57

Yeah, I think something we've learned this year is that being able, I mean, I get into this a little bit later, too. But being able to do like racial equity work or diversity work well, it requires a lot of emotional health and resiliency and self awareness. And yeah, like, it's just you can't really do this work without being an emotionally present healthy person, or at least being on that journey. So that's been huge. But I think it's interesting, too, as I look at this year, I feel like our organization, since we do so many events, we've done a really great job of like representational diversity, at least on our stages. But I think it's an interesting thing. So for those who don't know, earlier this year, Kayla and I did an entire workshop on transforming culture and naming racism in our organization. And there are some really great action items that we got from that. But both but we haven't had time, both of us, like really do the things that we even explored earlier this year. And I'm not saying that as like a We should feel guilty about that. But I think it's an organizational reality, when you're in the daily work of like doing what you do in the world, it's hard to step back and, and change the things you know, you need to change. And so I don't know, that's just something that's on my mind.

Kayla Stagnaro  09:16

Yeah, I think we're, it's like, the more we have these conversations, we're realizing that we kind of need to slow down and not necessarily slow down in this work. But we have to slow down on other things to make to the less than the diversity gap. It's like we have to take very pointed time to work through those questions. Yeah. So it's happening, but it's, it maybe looks a little different than we expected from the beginning.

Bethaney Wilkinson  09:48

So true.

Kayla Stagnaro  09:51

Okay, let's switch gears a little bit and let's talk about some of the themes that you've seen throughout the first season.

Bethaney Wilkinson  10:01

Yeah, so there are so many things. And I think as I get into the next couple of months, I'll have time to think about these even more, one of the first themes that has come to mind is the importance of internal work. So this speaks again to the emotional health piece. But it's like you can't out diversify. How like you can't do diversity work, if you aren't doing it internally, like checking your own biases and understanding your social location. And it's just it's so much personal presence and self awareness. 

Kayla Stagnaro  10:32

And again, not just like making the decision to do it. It's like, committing to keep me making those decisions. Yeah, yeah, I think it's easy for at least for white people to think like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna do diversity work, and then stop there. And so it's like, we have to keep asking questions, keep listening, and then act, like kind of from those conversations. And it's way more like vulnerable and challenging than just saying, oh, yeah, I'm, I'm on The Diversity Gap team, like, yeah. 

Bethaney Wilkinson  11:13

Yeah. It's I was spending time with a couple of business owners last week, actually. And I was we were talking about this internal work piece. And they asked, well, how do we continue to grow on that outside of reading and listening to podcast? And my question back was like, Well, how do you grow in any other area of your life? And so if you're listening, and you're wondering, Hey, okay, yeah, I hear it. Kayla, saying, I have to do something. I can't just say this. I would ask like, ask yourself, how else do I grow? Like, for me, Bethany, I love to journal a lot. And like, having extended periods of self reflection is a big part of how I learn. And so I wonder what that might be. For other people. I don't know, Kayla, what do you how do you grow? And you want to change something? Or?

Kayla Stagnaro  11:56

Yeah, I think that's a great question. Um, I try and read a lot. Whenever I can, I have two kids. So it's a little hard to read at times. But reading, listening to audio books, and then to process that information. It's kind of talking to the people who I'm closest with, and who are interested in like learning more and maybe being challenged in some of their thoughts. And I think the way I started to kind of some people might not agree with this method. But I think the way I started to figure out, like, who was open to these kinds of conversations, it was through Facebook, there was like, Maybe I posted an article, something I'd read and posted a few thoughts about it. And then there would be people who would completely disagree. And it's I wasn't engaging, I wasn't trying to like start something. But then there were people who had real questions. And then there are people who agreed, and it was like, Okay, this is like, kind of a good gauge of like, okay, these are some people I can kind of talk through some of these things with, when I myself have questions, or I'm learning something. So that's one way 

Bethaney Wilkinson  13:09

that's so good, that's gonna stealth. 

Kayla Stagnaro  13:11

It's like, I'm not trying to start drama, because it's Facebook, you have to be very, you know,

Bethaney Wilkinson  13:18

it can go back and get out of hand.

Kayla Stagnaro  13:22

But I think it can be helpful. Just even posting an article and just Yeah, to gauge who might be interested. 

Bethaney Wilkinson  13:29

That's so good. 

Kayla Stagnaro  13:30

Yeah. Okay, let's talk about, I feel like another theme that was kind of hit on many times, is the importance of executive level leadership. Mm hmm.

Bethaney Wilkinson  13:44

Yeah, this is a huge learning point for me, because I've never been an executive level. I've never been in that role before. But hands down the most. One of the most consistent themes these people have these thought leaders have said is like if the executive level leader, or board chair is not fully on board, again, not just saying that this is a priority, but like enacting new policies, new processes, new earning opportunities for their team, it's not going to happen. And I think that's I've been thinking a lot about whether or not team should hire like a Director of Diversity and Inclusion versus finding some other way to fold this work into the other parts of their team. I don't have a definitive answer on that. I'm sure someone's done research on this. But I just I'm really curious in the coming seasons, and then more research to figure out what keeps executive level leaders from not only again, buying in Word, but indeed, part of me thinks it's just kind of in how a lot of our organizational hierarchies work, like lots of executive level leaders, Delegate everything like that's the point you hire a team and you delegate. And yet this isn't something that should be delegated based on what people are saying. So I don't know I'm kind of rambling now but

Kayla Stagnaro  14:54

makes me think so I feel like bigger organizations they have policy They have handbooks, they have all like the way you should do things for sure. Doesn't mean it's always working. But I wonder, like, what do you think about small teams? We don't necessarily have any policies around this. But should we?

Bethaney Wilkinson  15:13

Yeah, I mean, I think that's a great question. We have structure around some things. So I wonder what it looks like to create a structure or a container for our work. I don't know. Maybe it's adding it to our values. Maybe it's creating like a quarterly or monthly rhythm around like workshopping and responding to those spark things we workshop. I'm not totally sure. Yeah, I think we create containers for what's important to us. And what we don't do naturally, we have to do intentionally. So. I even though we don't Yeah, we don't have a full handbook. Maybe we should go on math one, something like it.

Kayla Stagnaro  15:51

Yeah. It's like a work in progress.

Bethaney Wilkinson  15:55

Yeah, I'm not totally sure. But I think for small teams, it's like, what do you have structures for? And then would it be too much to add to add one or to adjust one too? To include this topic in conversation?

Kayla Stagnaro  16:08

Yeah, that's good. I'm sure our legal team would think, yes, youneed policy. 

Bethaney Wilkinson  16:12

Yeah, totally get some policies, please.

Kayla Stagnaro  16:15

But the reality of that happening is different. Yeah. Again, the idea of having to slow down and think through what those things are, how do we act, and them and not make it feel? Not us?

Bethaney Wilkinson  16:27

I was just thinking that. I think a lot of organizations fear that more bureaucracy is going to like ruin everything. That may or may not be true, I don't know. But there's also this fear, like, are we going to lose our culture? Are we going to lose who we are? And my thought is like, yeah, your culture is going to change. That's kind of the whole point. But I think there's something around that bureaucracy piece that people are afraid of, I need to think about that more. 

Kayla Stagnaro  16:50

That's good. Okay, so earlier, you talked about representational diversity. Can you tell us kind of what you're thinking the difference between that is in equity?

Bethaney Wilkinson  16:59

Yeah. Oh, gosh, this has been one of my favorite learnings this year. And it's so new for me still, that I'm nervous to talk about it. But it was two things. One was my interview with Xavier Raimi. And because he talked a lot about the equity gap, and just how, when we're pursuing equity, we're like, calling everything into question like all of our systems and all of our processes. And we're asking, Are these things good for everyone? Such a powerful question. But then also, I attended a workshop with an equity Centered Design Thinking workshop with the creative reaction lab in June. And so we spent all this time talking through like, what is equity? And how do we design for it? And so I've spoken about this some on the podcast, but I think it's one thing to have a lot of different colors of people are talking racial and ethnic diversity in a room. But does every person have what they need to come do what they are there to do to the best of their ability? mentally, emotionally, financially, like physically? Like, are we creating spaces where everyone can show up and bring their best? I just think it's a different question. Because it's not about how do I diversify my team? But it's like, how do I change my culture so that more kinds of people can thrive in this environment? I just, I think the question alone pushes us in our consideration of what's important and what's possible. So it's another thing I really hope to lean into, because I haven't thought about it that much. I think my heart is like, yes. I think because for so many organizations, diversity is like step one. That's where I spend a lot of my time. But I love the vision of an equitable future,

Kayla Stagnaro  18:40

which Stephanie Ghoston talks about on this most recent episode, or one of the most recent episodes, and she I love how she talks about its intent is not good enough. And it's this idea, like she's, like, assume everybody's intent is good. But like, let's raise the bar, essentially, like, what are you going to do with this intent? And that's the whole idea. Like, it's like, does our good do our good intentions? Have good impact? Yeah. And I love that. I feel like it's like, yeah, the next level that that it's, but I like the idea of it not just being like the next level. It's like the level you start up.

Bethaney Wilkinson  19:22

Mm hmm. Oh, that's good.

Kayla Stagnaro  19:25

So I think that's a good challenge. Yeah. Okay. One thing that I thought was really interesting, kind of our long themes, but I feel like different people hit on it in different ways. But the person I feel like you talked about it the most clearly was Sam Collier. In that episode, he talked about this idea of being like called or led to this work, especially if you're the one a person of color leading it in majority white organizations. And so I just, I feel like that's something probably isn't talked about enough. You've been able to be apply what as long as you have in this majority white organization, because you feel called to the work, you have relationships with people in the community, with our team. And so I think there's like that's a gift and something you feel called to do. But that doesn't mean that all people of color are called be the teachers

Bethaney Wilkinson  20:22

say that again. Yeah. Man, that's so good. And so true, because I think, and this is something, I'm fine, I see this all the time, this isn't new. And you and I are planning on doing a whole episode on this. But every person of color in your organization is not like, called equipped. It's not their job to like lead the organizational change, work around diversity, because they're black, or whatever ethnicity they are, like, that's not their job. And, but because we care about it so deeply, because it's a part of our experience, we ended up offering it anyway. And so I just, I'm more, I'm increasingly sensitive to that dynamic. Because I do think it's, it's not a bad thing for us to participate in lead in our own freedom and liberation and expression. That's not a bad thing. But I think there is a line that gets crossed, and we expect people of color to do extra emotional, and strategic organizational work that we don't compensate them for, that's not formally a part of their job description, and that they literally have no training. And just because they wake up black every day, or whatever their ethnicity might be. So I feel obviously I'm very passionate about X, I'm talking more quickly and emphatically. But yeah, that's something I really want to dive into more because I, I mean, I cannot tell you how many black women email me saying, Hey, I'm leading this diversity initiative in my organization, I have no training, will you come do a lunch and learn? And I'm like, Yes, I want to come help you. But why are you leaving this right? Like, you should be able to participate, like every other person on your team, and not go home worrying about your culture, I just think it's really problematic. So I'll back up now and stop rambling. I'm not rambling. I wasn't rambling.

Kayla Stagnaro  22:00

No, I think that's good. And I think that's something like our team has experienced, right? And we're kind of pivoting in different ways. Like I'm able to support you in ways that try not to put all that pressure on you. Sometimes we probably do it. Well. Sometimes we don't. But sure, like a real life like thing we've noticed. And we're like trying to make changes in

Bethaney Wilkinson  22:21

Yeah, and that. And I'm learning how to set boundaries around that. Like, yeah, I can lead in this. Okay, if I'm leaving our programs, yes, it is on me to make sure that our programs reflect a certain level of diversity and are supporting people from various backgrounds. That's different for me creating like a strategic plan to lead diversity in our organization. So for sure, learning how to create boundaries around that for myself.

Kayla Stagnaro  22:44

Good. All right. Tell us Bethaney, what's coming next.

Bethaney Wilkinson  22:49

Yeah. Great question. Oh, so I'm going to start working on a book. 

Kayla Stagnaro  22:55

Nice. Tell us more. 

Bethaney Wilkinson  22:58

Yeah, well, I want to be able to take all of this research and all of these learnings and compile them into something that's helpful and tell a little bit more my story and offer up some more solutions and insights and tips for teams and the people who lead and shape them. So I'll be taking a month to work on that. That's great. Yeah, I'm excited.

Kayla Stagnaro  23:21

I think a lot of people are gonna be really excited. 

Bethaney Wilkinson  23:23

I hope so.

Kayla Stagnaro  23:25

What else? Anything? Oh, yeah,

Bethaney Wilkinson  23:26

I'm in March, if you're local to Atlanta, or if you want to fly or drive here on March 6 2020. And we're hosting a live event. So it's called The Diversity Gap. And we're gonna have some really awesome speakers exploring the kind of leadership that's required to, to create the cultures of the future. And so we have a few confirmed speakers, but I'll be promoting and announcing all of that in the weeks to come. I want to wait.

Kayla Stagnaro  23:53

And it'll be at the new Plywood Place. 

Bethaney Wilkinson  23:55

Yeah, the new plywood place here in Atlanta and the West End. It'll be fun.

Kayla Stagnaro  23:59

Great. And then. So this is the last episode of season one. Yeah. Will there be a season two?

Bethaney Wilkinson  24:07

Dun, dun dun. That's gonna be the wrong sound. Um, yes, of course. I've alluded to it a couple of times, but I'm super excited for season two, already have some really fun. speakers lined up and then I hope to do more conversations with Kayla. She's busy like two kids full time job, now she's doing the thing. If she'll, she'll carve some time out for me wanting to do some. I've been calling them disrupt the dynamic episodes in my mind, but where we can dive into some of these dynamics that are really unhealthy in our organizations, and explore together what it might look like to disrupt those and practice something better.

Kayla Stagnaro  24:47

Great. becomes like very practical and challenging. I like that. Yeah. Cool. Okay, so how can people stay involved? Yeah, taking a little break between season

Bethaney Wilkinson  24:59

Yes. Though we'll take a couple months off. I mean, you can always re listen or share episodes but that you think are helpful to the people in your community

Kayla Stagnaro  25:07

definitely share. Yeah, there's been a few I feel like I've been able, like, oh, this person really needs to hear this, they've asked a question. So I think sharing is a really helpful tool, and it helps generate conversation.

Bethaney Wilkinson  25:21

Yeah, totally. So sharing episodes rating and reviewing the show super helpful. And then you can keep following on Instagram. And if you want to join our mailing list to stay in the loop about upcoming events, activities, content, fun things, you can do that at the diversity gap.com. And then lastly, if you're interested in sponsoring some part of the season or the event next year, you can reach out at stories at thediversitygap.com And we can connect about you sponsoring a season for your organization or company or an episode.

Kayla Stagnaro  25:53

Awesome. Anything else as we're wrapping up you want to share. 

Bethaney Wilkinson  25:57

I mean, this has been so fun that this has been such a fun process and experiment, learning how to podcast and talking to people and kind of I don't know, this has been really cool. And I feel like it's still the beginning that we're moving in a good direction. So awesome. Yeah. To season one to season one. Cheers. Thanks, Kayla. Thank you. Thank you for listening to The Diversity Gap podcast. If you've been challenged or inspired by what you've heard, please rate and review the show. You can also subscribe to make sure you never miss an episode. If you have thoughts or questions I love to hear from you connect with me at thediversitygap.com or on Instagram at The Diversity Gap. This episode was produced by DJ opdiggy for Soul Graffiti Productions