Embrace Cultural Change - Psychological Safety and Belonging w/ Liz Fosslien
Insight: You have to adopt new and more liberating values, and behaviors, if you want diverse groups of people to flourish as they follow you.
Action: You have to practice liberation and you must embody a new way of thinking and leading.
To add texture to this insight, I sat down with Liz Fosselien, an illustrator and the co-author of the Wall Street Journal best-seller No Hard Feelings: The Secret Power of Embracing Emotions at Work. Liz is an expert on how to make work better. As the Head of Content at Humu, she helps teams and leaders develop the skills and habits that allow them to unlock their full potential.
She regularly leads interactive, scientifically-backed workshops about how to build resilience, how to help remote workers avoid burnout, and how to effectively harness emotion as a leader. Her work has been featured by TED, Harvard Business Review, The New York Times, The Economist, and NPR.
In our conversation, we talk about Liz’s professional journey as well as what it takes to create psychological safety within your organizational culture. Check it out!
Transcript
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, psychological safety, diversity, creating, book, hear, liz, identity, good intentions, parents, starbucks, feeling, question, gap, emotion, support, organizational culture, important, lead, offer
SPEAKERS
Bethaney Wilkinson, Liz Fosselien
Bethaney Wilkinson 00:00
Hey, did you know you can officially preorder my book. It's called the diversity gap where good intentions meet true cultural change. If you are struggling to pair your good intentions for organizational diversity with thoughtful, human centered and story driven practices, then this book is for you, and the book I share eight key insights and actions you can engage to create a diverse and liberating organizational culture. I also share some personal stories in the research I've done over the past three years about why diversity gaps exist and how everyday people can close them. It is good stuff and I'm so excited to share it with all of you. Visit www dot the diversity gap. com to pre order your copy today. Welcome to the diversity gap podcast. This is the book edition. My name is Bethany Wilkinson, and I am your host. Okay, welcome to episode five of the book edition of the diversity gap podcast. Today's chapter is all about embracing cultural change. And the key insight for this chapter is that you have to adopt new and more liberating values and behaviors. If you want diverse groups of people to flourish as they follow you. I'll say that one more time, you have to adopt new and more liberating values and behaviors. If you want diverse groups of people to flourish as they follow you. You have to practice liberation, and you must embody a new way of thinking and leading. To add texture to this insight I sat down with Liz Fastlane, an illustrator and the co author of The Wall Street Journal bestseller no hard feelings the secret power of embracing emotions at work. Liz is an expert on how to make work better. As the head of content at humu. She helps teams and leaders develop skills and habits that allow them to unlock their full potential. She regularly leads interactive and scientifically backed workshops about how to build resilience, how to help remote workers avoid burnout, and how to effectively harness emotion as a leader. Her work has been featured by Ted Harvard Business Review, The New York Times The Economist and NPR. In our conversation, we talk about Liz's professional journey, as well as about what it takes to create psychological safety within your organizational culture. Check it out. Alright, right, everyone, I'm super pumped to share or I guess to introduce Liz to all of you, Liz, how's it going? I'm good. It's Friday. Glad It's Friday. Oh, I hear ya. Well, I'm really looking forward to talking with you more about your work and about organizational culture. Where I start off all of my conversations is by asking my guests, when did you first know you had a race or racial identity? And how did you know?
Liz Fosselien 03:14
Yeah, so I've been thinking about this question. And I think for context, I grew up I was born in San Francisco, but then grew up mostly in a very homogenous white suburb of Chicago. And so I think my answer is, I don't think I really had a moment around it until my mid 20s, if I'm being totally honest. I mean, I definitely was, like, knew that I was white. And that, like people had races, but I compare it to. So both of my parents are immigrants. And that was an identity that I like very much was aware of when I was young. Like I remember, my mom always wanted me to just say that I was American, because she was so excited. But like, I didn't have an accent. And I remember, at age eight, when my parents came to school with me, one of my friends being like, your parents speak really weird, like what's going on with the way they say words? And it was like, you know, it was just kind of a harmless question. But that was this big moment of like, Oh, my parents are culturally different in some way. But with race, my parents are also like, white, they're from Europe. I remember I was working at a music startup. And I went to a party with a lot of artists. And it was the first time in my life that I was the only white person which again, is like, I think just says a lot about how you can grow up in America and not have that happen until your mid 20s. And I went to like, a liberal arts college and you know, saw myself as worldly and knowing a lot of people and I just remember like people at that party could not have been nicer, like everyone was just having a good time. And I yeah, what stood out to me is how quickly I started to think through all these stereotypes that I didn't even know I had within me of like, Oh, am I being a white girl right now? Like, what kind of alcohol? should I pick? Just how am I presenting myself? All of this? Yes, stuff that in that I just remember that so distinctly as also, I think back on it a lot of like, Oh, this is what some people who are really in the racial minority experience every day at work on the bus, in the grocery store. And so, yeah, again, it was like, really wasn't till I was like 25. I'm being very honest.
Bethaney Wilkinson 05:35
Yeah, yeah, that's such a great just, I don't know, illustration of how people who are who are and have been the racial majority, just I don't know, I just think that was a really great illustration, what you just described in that moment of encounter, even a lot of psychologists and racial identity formation work talk about like that moment of encounter, and it just tends to happen for people of color at a much younger age. Yeah. So my second question is, how is your racial identity? informed your professional trajectory, if at all, and if not your racial? identity? Maybe your identity as being the daughter of immigrants?
Liz Fosselien 06:15
Yeah, so Rachel, probably not so much, although likely made it easier in a way is that I can't pick up on or wasn't aware of, especially earlier on. But yeah, I think being the child of immigrants definitely was, you know, go get a degree, then get another degree, then get a job that is very stable, and just work really hard. And I was very much brought up under this ethos of to be a professional is like you don't fail, you don't fast, and you certainly do not feel. And I think that really determined a lot of my career choices in my early 20s. And essentially, like, burnt me out completely, because I was miserable, and in the job that checked all the boxes on paper, but that I hated. And then one thing that I read that that sticks that stuck with me, I think it wasn't a wall street journal article or something random, was that your parents want what's good for you. But that's not necessarily what's best for you. And that was for me. Yeah, just like being in this. I went into consulting after college, and really just burnt out after two years. And sort of that was the moment I was like, Okay, this just didn't work. And I sort of did all the things that I thought I was supposed to do. And it just didn't work. So now what and that was like, Okay, I need to confront emotion. And I need to confront What do I want to wish my life all of these big existential questions?
Bethaney Wilkinson 07:45
Yeah. Oh, gosh. Okay, so I didn't send you this question. But I'm curious now, because I don't think I know the answer. How did you go from burnt out consultant to being half of Liz and Molly and being illustrator like, and being someone who talks about him being a human and feelings in the workplace? Like, can you give us a version of that story?
Liz Fosselien 08:07
Yeah, so I attribute it all to Starbucks. Nice. So yeah. So when I was a consultant, I worked in like a big building in Chicago. And I think like many people, my escape was, I would just go to Starbucks multiple times a day, because it was like, a block away. And let me get out of the office and just something different. And so when I left my consulting job, I had no idea what I wanted to do next. And at the time, obama care, basically, the way health insurance worked was I had no health insurance. And I couldn't go back on my parents plan, because I was too old. And thank you, America.
Bethaney Wilkinson 08:46
I know. Right?
Liz Fosselien 08:47
Yeah. So on my way, I think I was just like, it was my last day of consulting, didn't know what I was doing. And I just went to the Starbucks. And I had read somewhere that if you work there part time, they actually give you full benefits. And so I said, I've been coming here every day, you know me, can I be a barista here. And so I was a barista there for like, I think six or seven months while I just sort of like tried to figure out what I was doing with my life. And that was actually this really amazing experience for me where I think I had always thought that again, with this sort of very immigrant, my parents are very academic and quantitative, that like, if you want to do art, it's just a really great way to be really poor. Which, you know, this is just like the rhetoric that my parents had instilled in me. And so at Starbucks, all of a sudden, it was like, oh, design informs every single choice of the store, like they want to be this emotional third space. So you have home you have work, and then you have this third place, and the music changes, the lighting changes where the pastry is put, like all of these things are so carefully thought out. And I think that was for me, really starting to understand that and like we opened the world of marketing to me, and I've just like, Yeah, but emotions, creating an emotional experience is such an essential part of having a good product or like putting something out in the world that people want. And I think Yeah, really opened me up to this idea that I had closed myself off from have no creativity can actually benefit business. And if you're good at it, and if you figure out how to harness it, it can help people love something like Starbucks Coffee is not phenomenal. And people like really had an emotional connection to it. And you could say, it's because caffeine is a drug, I think that might be part of it. But it's also because they they have really effectively created a brand that is so like, ubiquitous, but also identifiable. So yeah, I think that for me, it was like, Okay, this, I could do something that plays into emotions that plays into art and creativity. And it's, it doesn't mean that, you know, I'm on the street or whatever, like thing had been sort of put into my brain at a young age.
Bethaney Wilkinson 11:11
That's so great. I love it. This is kind of different. I, many years ago, I was a part of a startup, an urban farming startup thing. And I'm not gonna go down that rabbit trail, cuz it's a long one. But I go, I'm curious. Another time, another time. Okay. Um, but I got really burnt out on it on the whole thing. And so I left to go work part time at a garden center. And it was just, I think something about scaling back and doing something simple, consistent and beautiful with my hands freed up all of this, like mental and emotional, creative energy that I could then go on to invest in my next season of life. And so you describing like, stepping out of your consulting work taking pause at Starbucks, which is such a, I don't know, I just think it's such a brilliant move for people who are stressed out and don't know what to do next, like scale back, do something simple, consistent. That is that's meaningful to a degree based on what your needs are. And and yeah, I don't know, I just think that's cool. I like hearing that you did that.
Liz Fosselien 12:12
Yeah, yeah, I think everything you said really resonates. And also, I would say that it was not a well planned out move. It was I think just like it's sort of what you said, just do something that requires you to do it with your hands, something that's totally different from what you did before. And you'll just learn something or it'll free up other mental space for you. I'm a big believer in just kind of putting one foot in front of the other, and then it ultimately kind of works out.
Bethaney Wilkinson 12:40
Yeah, same. Well, something that I really appreciate about your work? Well, there's a couple things. Number one, your illustrations are incredible and so helpful, and take these really complex ideas, and distill them into something that like people can apply. So that's awesome. But number two, they're always reminding me as someone who follows your work. And so in general, that employees are human people. And we have very human needs and reactions to our workplace environments. And so kind of in that vein, I have a lot of different questions for you. And my first one is all about psychological safety. This is something that comes up a good bit in my work, doing dei consulting. And I think it's really important to see change happen. But I'd love to hear how you define psychological safety. Why you think it's important, and how leaders can cultivate that in their organizational cultures?
Liz Fosselien 13:36
Yeah. psychological safety, I would say is feeling safe, taking small risks, maybe big risks, too. And so by small risks, I mean, asking a question, even if it's a very basic question, throwing out an idea that's very different from other people's ideas, sharing your full perspective, your full history, background, experiences, and then also feeling like if something goes wrong, or if you admit a mistake, that you're not going to be punished for it, that people will just help you fix it. And so, this is really similar to something that Molly and I talk about a lot, which is this concept of belonging. And I think the additional piece on belonging is feeling not that you are part of the group because you're similar to everyone, but you're valued actually, because of everything that makes you unique. And so in the book, we say, diversity is having a seat at the table. Inclusion is having a voice and then belonging is having that voice be heard. And I think that's all like really closely tied with psychological safety. And so that's important. Because if you don't feel that you aren't able to kind of shine you probably won't contribute, you'd actually definitely will not contribute everything that you know, you're not gonna you'll be much more reluctant to flag for other people when things are going wrong. So that might turn into a much bigger problem. And then it needs to be. There's just all kinds of research that show the negative effects of people not feeling psychologically safe at work. So this shows up like, in doctors offices, doctors will not tell other people or pull people in for help when they need it. And obviously, that has really bad outcomes for patients, and hedge funds. So the financial sector is an industry that I think I definitely had this earlier on was like, Oh, that's just an industry where like, investment bankers and traders are just mean to each other. That's just kind of how it works. But they looked at hedge fund managers, and the teams whose manager was really supportive and created psychological safety, they had higher returns on their investment than teams whose manager was like throwing coffee against the wall and doing all these horrible things. So across industries across roles, it really matters. And then for how leaders can cultivate it, I think. So if you're a leader, I'd say really leading by example. So and this doesn't have to be a big rollout, or you need an amazing campaign, it's as simple as in a meeting, if someone does share something that's different than what everyone else is talking about flagging it and saying, like, Hey, I really appreciate you sharing that it's so important that we hear all these different perspectives. Or, wow, I hadn't thought about it like that, thank you for bringing that to my attention. It's the small cues that actually together create an emotional culture in which people feel safe or not safe. So I think just and this is, you know, this is like an individual can do this too. You don't need to be the CEO to be sitting in a meeting and say something like that, if you see someone get interrupted, especially now that we're on video calls, if you see someone like unmute themselves and unmute themselves, and they just can't figure out when to speak, just jumping and saying, like, Hey, we didn't hear from Sonia, I noticed you unmuted yourself. Like, I would love to hear what you have to say it's these, again, these small things that I think make a really big difference.
Bethaney Wilkinson 17:09
That's so great. And I love the emphasis on it being a small thing to like, it's creating the conditions where someone will take a small risk, not that they have to show up and overturn the whole organization, but just that affirmation that the small things matter. I find in my own research, I do a lot around interviewing underrepresented racial minorities, and they're in majority white cultural contexts. And I find that a lot of the things that kind of tear at belonging and that tear at inclusion are things like these micro moments, and not always like micro aggressions, in the sense that it's based on someone's identity, but just little moments, little interactions where someone says something or does something that tears at a person's sense of confidence or belief that I don't know that they're supposed to be in the room, whatever it might be. I just think those little things go a long way in either closing diversity gaps or widening them. And I think your insight there is really key. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on topics related to identity, like racial identity, or political identity, like these things, and workplaces are really fraught with conflict or they can be and so what have you learned lately, as it relates to how teams can navigate some of these more emotionally charged topics, issues, lived realities based on identity in the workplace?
Liz Fosselien 18:39
Yeah, it's a great question. So the first thing I would say is, I think we just all need to become a little more comfortable with conflict. Because it's often talked about how do you overcome conflict? How do you avoid, not avoid, but how do you get through it, and conflict is actually, if it's handled correctly, can lead to really amazing breakthroughs. It's like if you and I disagree on something, and then I take the time to understand where you're coming from, and I share why I came up with my view, we probably actually get especially in the workplace to something much cooler at the end of that conversation, than if you just agreed with everything I said, or vice versa. So I think one is just like, it's totally fine for people to disagree with each other. And let's start building the muscle of trying to listen to why they came to that view and then also like, holding an opinion loosely. So being willing to flex a little bit to depending on what you learn. And then I think especially when it comes to identity, I think one of the the sort of big principles that I love bi which is not doesn't sound like rocket science, but it's just that different people are different, and so also creating space for people to have have different reactions within those conversations. So one thing that I've been asked a lot recently is just like how do I support people who might be of an identity? Like, I think in the wake of George Floyd last summer, like managers saying, like, how do I support my black team members. And I think such an important thing there is like, just offer support. But don't make assumptions about them, like wanting to talk to you wanting to talk to anyone, and I think a great way to do that is just like, hey, my door is open. If there's anything I can do, let me know, if you just want to take the day off. Like, if you just don't want to say anything to me and have heads downtime for a couple days, that's also fine. But if there is something that comes to mind, like please communicate that, to me, in whatever way feels comfortable, I'm here. And so that's one way to say like, you know, I'm, we're creating space to talk about these things. But I'm not like forcing someone to talk about it. Because, you know, some people will want to engage, some people might not. And so I think real psychological safety is kind of feeling like you can just be yourself. And there's like a wide range of people are comfortable with different emotional expressions, some people want to be themselves fully at work. And some people are what they call segmenter is, which are people who kind of like having work be a little separate from their personal lives. And that's just a preference. And so I think a big part of it is like one getting comfortable conflict, getting more comfortable with having conversations that don't necessarily feel like amazing and good, because we're all agreeing. And then the other is, yeah, just creating space for a wide range of views. And then also a wide range of reactions, I think, especially to things happening in the news, and then the world around us.
Bethaney Wilkinson 21:50
That's really great. I, I really like the like, kind of like the both and of saying, Hi, I'm here for you, like I want to provide support. And then also saying here are something like breaking down a few ways, like, hey, if you want to talk, that's an option, if you need a day off, that's an option, if you want to have a few days, you know, heads down, not bothering you, like, I think it is that both and of offering support, and then even giving some people ideas of what that support could look like, can be helpful, too, because I find that sometimes people don't know what they need, and they don't know what's acceptable to ask for. But extending that, and opening that door is really just really important.
Liz Fosselien 22:30
So my father in law died last year. And I remember, the best text I got, and people are very well meaning and so you get a lot of like, I'm so sorry to hear that if there's anything I could do for you, let me know. And at that point, I was just like, I have no idea what someone can do for me. And I just really remember my friend who's like extremely emotionally intelligent, has researched a lot of a lot of emotion related things, sending me this text a couple days later and saying, Hey, I'm here for you, whatever you need, but here are four things I could do for you. And you can at any point, just send me a text and say number two, and I'll do it and it was like number one, you just call me and vent about whatever you want. And I'll listen. Number two, you can text me at any time of day, and I'll like commit to responding really quickly. And we can have a text conversation. Number three, I can send you cookies. And number four, I don't remember whatever was just like, such an Yeah, it really, it took kind of the burden off of me to have to sort of really sit down and be like, Well, what do I need? What am I feeling at a time when I just just didn't have capacity to do that?
Bethaney Wilkinson 23:45
Yes. Oh, that's great. I I keep saying that's so great. I just really think it is even I'm my mind's even just going through what could those that list of things be? Especially in the wake of a racial crisis? You know, I think offering to cover therapy or counseling offering days off, I just, I can really, for those who are listening, I can just imagine so many possibilities for ways that we can support one another. Okay, are you ready for the lightning round? Yes. Okay, number one, what's your favorite story of all time?
Liz Fosselien 24:25
So the thing that came to mind, I think if it's like a I'm sorry, I'm ruining the lighting. I love everything. Pixar. I just watched Seoul the other day, and I just like wept starting at minute for that movie. And inside out so good. But like my favorite story that I've ever heard is from Maurice Sendak, who's an illustrator who wrote like Where the Wild Things Are. He illustrated wrote a lot of children's books. And he said that he wants got or he sent a little drawing to a boy who was a fan. And then the mom wrote him a letter and said, this little boy was so excited when he got the illustration that you made for him that he ate it, because he was just like, I want to keep this with me forever. And somehow, like, especially as an illustrator there, I think there's no greater compliment but a child eating your work because they wanted to be part of themselves. Oh my gosh, that is so good. Oh, I hope one day a child eats my
Bethaney Wilkinson 25:30
Oh, wow, that's fantastic. Okay, number two, what's the last book you read and loved?
Liz Fosselien 25:37
I read Pachinko on a friend's recommendation, which follows. Like, I think it's a Korean family who's also in Japan for four generations. And also one of those books where you just like, your soul tears in half and you can't stop reading.
Bethaney Wilkinson 25:55
Great, well, without one up. If you could have dinner with one person living or dead, who would you choose?
Liz Fosselien 26:03
I think the first person that came to mind was David Chang, because he maybe he could cook. He owns like Momofuku and cookbooks, but also because he will like unabashedly talk about how much he loves Cheetos, and McDonald's and I just really appreciate an incredible chef who will also admit that fast food is delicious.
Bethaney Wilkinson 26:28
Oh, I think a chef is like the perfect idea. I hadn't thought of that. One song that would be on the soundtrack to your life.
Liz Fosselien 26:39
Um, so no, I struggle with this one. The song that I will, I'll say that's the one that I will listen to when I am exercising and really don't want to but need motivation is Be a man from Milan.
Bethaney Wilkinson 26:54
Ooh, yes. Oh, I want to start singing right now. But it's so good. Okay, last but not least, how can everyday people close the gap between their good intentions for diversity and true cultural change?
Liz Fosselien 27:11
action, I think, you know, good intentions without doing anything about it don't really affect anyone. So and again, it's it doesn't have to be a huge thing. It's great if it is. But it's it's just like speaking up when you see something that you think is wrong, asking someone their preferences, or like how do you want to receive feedback? How can we work together? I just think just take like one small step. And usually it's like a reinforcing cycle where you're like, oh, that actually felt really good. I'm so glad that I had a good impact. And I'm going to keep doing this.
Bethaney Wilkinson 27:47
Ah, fantastic. So good. Okay, let's where can people find you keep up with you keep learning from you.
Liz Fosselien 27:56
Yeah, so on Instagram lives and Molly, Molly's mo Ll IE, and then our website is the same thing was emmalee.com. Um, I think those are the primary places.
Bethaney Wilkinson 28:09
Great. And your book is called no hard feelings. People can check that out too, right? Yes, correct. Great. Well, thanks so much for your time, you're the best. Yeah, thank you for having me. This was fun. Thank you so much for checking out another episode of the diversity gap Podcast. I am really sitting with this idea from Liz, that leaders get to create psychological safety on their teams. And I'm really struck by how psychological safety isn't about doing the big thing all the time. It's really about creating an environment where your team members feel like they can take small risks. And I just think that's incredible. The risks to say what they need the risks to offer an idea the risks to offer pushback, what can we be doing in our lives and our leadership and our families to create that psychological safety? So that change is possible. Incredible questions, incredible content, go check out Liz's book. And if you're looking for more support as you are pursuing more diversity in your organization, check out my book the diversity gap where good intentions meet true cultural change. You can also check out our membership over on Patreon you can access that through the diversity gap academy website, and on Patreon, we offer a bonus content all year round. So if that is something that you're looking for, please consider becoming a patron of the diversity gap. We are so thankful for those who contribute monthly to make sure that this good work continues to happen. Thanks again and until next time, may your good intentions for diversity lead to true cultural change.