Amplifying Minority Voices + Diversifying Your Board of Directors w/ Donna and Leroy Barber

Episode Notes: In this episode of The Diversity Gap Podcast, Bethaney has a conversation with Donna and Leroy Barber, the founders of The Voices Project. The Barbers have decades of experience leading teams and communities in the work of advocacy, racial justice and social change. They’ve done it all, from launching their own startups to writing books to sitting on various executive teams and leadership boards.

In this conversation, Bethaney and the Barbers dive into what it takes to amplify the voices of underrepresented minorities on majority culture teams. They also discuss many of the nuanced relational challenges that show up on executive teams and boards of directors who seek to move in more diverse direction.

For your reference:

The Voices Project:

https://www.voices-project.org

Research on Unequal Startup Funding based on Race and Gender:

https://projectdiane.digitalundivided.com

Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, voices, color, leaders, space, culture, communities, important, organizations, diversity, instincts, create, leroy, talking, white, life, hear, person, conversation, question

SPEAKERS

Bethaney Wilkinson, Leroy Barber, Donna Barber

Bethaney Wilkinson  00:00

I was totally freaking out. It was 2009. And I was at this camp with a bunch of other people who just finished their first year of college. And they called for all of the students to break into these racial affinity groups. So all of the white kids are going to go to one place all the black kids and kids from within the African diaspora, we're going to go in a different place, and then all the Asian students are going to go somewhere else. And then all the Hispanic students, we're going to go somewhere else. And I just never experienced this before. And I didn't know what it was going to be like, I grew up in a setting where most of my peers were white, most of my teachers were white. And so I just I wasn't sure like, Well, my will these other students like me? Will this be okay? At the end of the day, though, it was awesome. Like I did not even know how much I needed a space intentionally curated just for me. And just for people who had similar experiences as my own. Honestly, it was such a game changer. Welcome to The Diversity Gap podcast, where we are exploring the gap between good intentions and good impact as it relates to diversity, equity and inclusion. My name is Bethany Wilkinson and I am your host. Welcome, welcome to another episode of The Diversity Gap Podcast. Today, I get to share with you a conversation I had with two of my dear long distance mentors, Donna and Leroy Barber, I don't know two people or a family in general that is more committed to the work of justice and equity, they have wrapped their entire lives around this purpose. And I have had the great honor of being in the wake of their leadership. And I first connected with Donna when I was a senior in college. So back in 2012, when I was trying to decide what to do with my life, and I left that conversation feeling so encouraged to take risks and try new things. I later reconnected with the barbers through CCDA, the Christian Community Development Association, and then later on through the nonprofit they lead, which is called the voices project. The voices project exists to influence culture through the training and promotion of leaders of color, their work has profoundly shaped my life as a leader. And I'm really excited to share this interview with you. And before we get there, I do want to say a couple things. If you are a white leader listening in on this conversation, know that learning how to empower leaders of color as a white leader is incredibly important. It's like a new skill that you're going to have to put in your toolkit. And Donna and Leroy have some really excellent lessons on how to make that happen. And if you're a leader of color listening in, know that there are spaces for you to be yourself and to learn how to lead from a place of authenticity, we need your unique contributions in every sphere of society. And so finding spaces like the voices project where you're able to explore your gifts, your voice, your passions, your contributions, it's just really important. And Donna and Leroy help us all get there. So without further ado, here is my interview. Awesome. Hi. Good morning. I'm glad y'all are here.

Leroy Barber  03:24

It's good to be here.

Bethaney Wilkinson  03:26

Okay, so I start all my interviews with the question, and you'll have to answer it separately, cuz you're two different people. The first question is, when did you first know that you have a race or ethnic identity?

Leroy Barber  03:40

Yeah, pretty early on life. I think we when I think of three or four years old, we've moved to my parents bought a house. And I guess what was a middle class neighborhood at the time, and so a lot of our neighbors were white. And when we first moved there, so and I must have been three or four years old. So that's when I first kind of saw some difference.

Donna Barber  04:08

I wonder if that's the same thing. But I think yeah, we moved into a neighborhood. First time having any white neighbors I was probably about six. Okay. But I don't know that I still really thought about it. You know, I knew that these people were different. And I knew that they were moving out as we were moving in. But But I don't think I thought about it very much until more like high school closer to college because my world was still pretty the same.

Bethaney Wilkinson  04:49

Yeah, I love starting with that question. Because it's, I mean, it's different for everyone depending on who they are, where they're from, but a lot of it has to do with neighborhoods and the changes they experience in their neighborhoods and I think that speaks to like a larger cultural social reality, like how neighborhoods changed. But cool. I was just curious. So I want to know more you guys lead the voices project. And I would love for you to share with our listeners what the voices project is. And why did you start it?

Donna Barber  05:20

So the voices project we started a little over 10 years ago. And initially, it was a coming together of a small group of all African American people at the time to have conversation and driven out of our own experiences, working for an extended time in nonprofit, and particularly in evangelical spaces in America in the south. And finding the challenges that come with doing that as black people in this country. And having experienced a lot of time of struggle with constructs, like support raising and feeling isolated with that. And so we wanted to come together and talk about that and see, you know, what do we do? How do we make this better for other people? And so voices was kind of born out of that?

Leroy Barber  06:30

Yeah. Yeah, I think I echo what Donna just said, I think the out of our own experience and our own understanding of we have been doing this for 20 years at the time and not seeing the fruit of fundraising, that seeing some of the fruit and some of the missional spaces that we're working in and just go on. We need to have conversation with other leaders to see if this is if this is the same. And it kind of worked out that it was. And from there, I think we expanded a couple years in to be for all people of color. Sure. But it started originally, to be a space for black people.

Bethaney Wilkinson  07:14

Yeah, I feel like that might be new to some people. I'm familiar with the constructs that make it hard to support race for black people who are in a variety of work. Can you speak to that from your vantage point? Like, for someone who's listening who's like, Oh, that's interesting. I've never thought of that. Why would it be different for a black person to fundraise and for a white person? It makes sense to me, but I love for y'all to weigh in on that. 

Leroy Barber  07:40

Yeah. So fundraising starts with the, with the thought out process, that you can raise money from your church, or your family or your friends, right. And so if your church family and friends don't have expendable income to give, you have to do the work you do, then it makes that process harder. And beyond expendable income, there are some cultures where fundraising is seems odd that you graduate from college, and then you go and you raise money to do a job, it seems odd to other some culture, some cultures of color. And so that makes that space whole space of support, raising a very challenging space for people of color for various reasons, some economic, some cultural, right? Gender, we've studied and found that all of those things play into people of color, not being able to, to see across the board in general success in fundraising spaces, which is a pretty cultural right phenomenon that if you've raised in a church where, or in a space where y'all went on youth trips, and you raise money, your church was used to you were used to you grew up in that, right, seeing that and doing that. But if you weren't in a space or culture where that happened, then it seems odd. And it seems new until it makes it struggle.

Bethaney Wilkinson  09:14

I was talking with someone who leads another organization in the city and he was describing how when it comes to raising capital for startups, like just it's similar but different, like who do we believe is worth investing in? Who do we believe is going to go take this and be a go getter? And how all of that is even coded around race and gender and I wish I had the statistics to say right now I'm to look them up and put them in the show notes or something, but it's, it's drastic.

Donna Barber  09:42

And I think often I feel like a lot of the story that has to be told, or is expected to be told to raise those funds are stories that are sometimes just flat out demeaning to the communities of color And so you have to exploit the weaknesses or the misfortunes of a community in order to get these resources that that's often the way things are framed, and it is a very different thing to be asked to participate in your own exploitation. Oh, gosh.

Bethaney Wilkinson  10:28

Okay, um, so how either then or now, how is your work with voices kind of disrupting that reality for people of color, who are wanting to opt out of participating in their own exploitation, but are also wanting to be involved in that whatever development they perceive needs to happen in their community? What are some of your thoughts or experiments even around that, then over the years,

Leroy Barber  10:58

I think what it comes down to, or it came down to, as we were forming voices was the idea of assimilation, that most of the time, we are asking people to assimilate into something as opposed to bring themselves into it. And so because of that, the culture starts to kind of dictate how people enter how people work or behave, how people spend money, I mean, all these things start to play out within the culture of an organization or company or things like that. And so our initial message and still is, for people of color is that we, we want to create a space where you can be yourself in this space, bring yourself, but we also want to begin to help our selves as leaders to go, we need to create spaces where we're inviting people to be themselves and not their simulated selves into a space. And so and that's challenging for me as a man, right? Like, how do I create a space where women can come in and be themselves in that space? Right. So while a big part of it is race and culture, there's also gender and other things that are included and creating creating spaces for people to flourish? Yeah,

Bethaney Wilkinson  12:20

it makes me as I was preparing for an interview, I was trying to think through my first experiences in a space that was specifically for Black and African American Christian leaders, because I remember it's super clear, because I was, I grew up in a very small town, very segregated town. But then I was trapped into his program, where I was the only black person for like, the whole time. I was in it until I graduated and got to college. And I was in college really involved in this campus ministry went to Chapter camp, which is like this thing we did for a week at the end of every school year. And they're like, Okay, we're gonna break into, they may have called them affinity groups, I don't remember at the time, but that was it. It was like, okay, all of the Asian students are gonna go here, all the blacks, and we're gonna go here, and I was like, what is happening? I've never experienced this before. And I remember my personality is one that likes to be prepared, and I tend to be intimidated. Anyway. So I was nervous. But I got to the group, and I remember feeling, a really afraid because I intend to be that way. But then also, I was like, Oh, I can there's like a deep breath I can take here that I did not know I was breathing prior. Like, I didn't know that I needed that I did not know I was holding my breath. And my life, like I didn't know. And so I got to that point. And I was like, Oh, I can chill. Yeah, I can listen, I can be held, I can be invested in. Yeah. And so I don't like I guess my question for you is, what advice would you give to someone who maybe was like me? I don't know. That was almost 10 years ago. Now, a person of color who isn't even aware that they're holding their breath, like how would you maybe nerd like coats them into considering that they need a space like voices or an affinity space for their race or their gender blind 

Donna Barber  14:09

I think is important to have. Other people come and share that the experience that you had, like, we I had a conversation with a woman at the end of the last voices conference, and I knew that she was coming from a place where she was working in a context or at least in an environment, a larger environment of city where there were not a lot of people of color, and she was expressing how much she enjoyed the conference and how much it meant to her. And and I said to her now, we have to go back and you have to share that with other people like yourself, who do not know what they do not know. And when I said it, she was like, Yeah, and it was she got that immediately because she realized she could think of people immediately around her who she could see that they needed this, but that they probably don't know that there is any, they don't know what the need is, and then that, that there is any relief for that. But I think it's really important for us to share those experiences, because then when someone is talking about it, that's where another person connects to that and says, Yeah, I feel that way I need that. And then they, they start looking for this thing that they discovered, like it is possible to breathe. Yes,

Leroy Barber  15:44

I think the another intentional part of voices is the promotion of leaders of color. We see our work as promoting the voices of people of color. And so because of that reason, right, there are people who are working in environments that don't know that they are, that they are assimilating more than they're being themselves in these spaces. And so through publishing work, and other podcasts and other things to, to put that out, because we, we just had a woman come to our voices gathering in January, she's 42 years old, and was in tears going, I'm, I'm in my 40s. And I have never been in a space where I was invited to be my full Asian self, in the space, right. And so part of what we want to do is we want, we want younger leaders to get that message early, we don't want you to get that message in your 20s. Because my goodness, that 20 years, like difference of you breathing and you feeling like you don't have to assimilate can be a massive impact on the trajectory of our country, of our world. And so, to the promotion part is really important.

Donna Barber  17:15

And I think it's also important to get young people to understand that what it is they desire, because some people do know what they want, but they don't realize that they are the only people who can create what they want. Wow. So saying to especially like when I've talked to students on campus, you know, like, you want your campus to be a multicultural campus, you realize that it's not, but you don't seem to realize that the majority culture cannot create that, wow, like, they don't have the ability to create it, only you can create it. And the only way you can create it is that you have to show up as yourself, and to see that register on their faces. And in the end, there's a bit of fear that comes up. But then the struggle of here's this thing I want, and I can't have it, unless I overcome my fear. And I show up and I speak in my own voice. And I'm willing to assume leadership in my own voice. That's the challenge. But if that's the only way, because we cannot expect majority culture to somehow create what we need, because they don't have the capacity to do so.

Leroy Barber  18:40

Yeah, yeah. So and so we've mentored and mentor a lot of white leaders as well. And so one of the rules of if a white leader asked me for mentorship is the first step is that you will not eat like when it comes to race and culture, that you will not trust your own instincts that you will you will run by a person of color in your life, right? Because they can't create those spaces. So

Bethaney Wilkinson  19:10

wow, that is so helpful. Okay, so I had to jump in here. This is one of the biggest diversity gaps I have experienced and that I've seen, it's that oftentimes, and some of our organizations, leaders of color don't feel like their instincts so that their voices matter. And this isn't just because of an internalized self doubt. It's because they've been told directly or indirectly, that their voices actually don't matter. Whereas you have white leaders who have been affirmed and told over and over again, that their perspectives and instincts are actually really valuable. And so I love what Donna and Leroy say here because it really flips that paradigm on its head. Donna says, Hey, if you're a leader of color, you have to show up, assume leadership. And you have to lead with your authentic voice and who you actually are if we're going to see The cultures that we want come to life. And then Leroy says, Hey, if you're a white leader, you actually cannot trust your instincts at all. You have to take a backseat, when it comes to this conversation, because you don't know what's best, you aren't socialized to know how to lead organizations to where they're trying to go, especially as it relates to creating cultures of diversity, and belonging. And so I just think this is such an important point. And I thought I should pause the conversation to say so I think, yeah, you can't trust your own instincts you don't have. Yeah, wow, it's interesting, because I feel like kind of what I'm hearing from you all is a part of our voices does and then what you do with your lives as you create these spaces, where leaders of color can incubate practice their voice, practice breathing, practice showing up as who they really are, so that they can go to their majority culture spaces and bring that with them. What from what you've observed, what are some of the forces in the majority culture space, that makes it hard for the leaders of color? So they, they're a part of a community, they're building their strength, they're learning who they are, and they go back to majority culture, what are some things that they can keep an eye out for, that might then cause them to retreat?

Leroy Barber  21:14

So I think one of the traps right around this is the fact that when you're in an organization that's thriving, right, without any people of color, then that's a huge challenge, right? Because as people of color, get involved in something like that, you and you start talking about diversity, then what comes up is this idea around mission drift, right? That, oh, we're drifting off of our mission. And this is not what we're here for. So people of color have to, you've got to build some resilience, right to be able to step into those spaces, because they are, quote, unquote, successful, right? They're making money or they're don't, you know, they got good donors, or they're growing and these kind of things without people of color, and one of the markers has got to become, if you're not diverse, right? In an all in these many ways, you're actually not successful, you've actually created a space that only further supremacy and I and I hate to throw that term out there without explaining it, but then that that's really what you've built. Right? 

Bethaney Wilkinson  22:26

So um, so I would say one of my favorite things, I think my first voices event that I went to was in 2017, I think it was the a gathering where you were bringing together Latin X leaders and Black and African American leaders. And then I went to a conference this past was made. And what I so love and appreciate about the spaces y'all create is that as you've gone from serving mostly black African American people to serving people of color more broadly, is you've been really intentional about not assuming solidarity between different communities of color. And actually, that's really distinct and important. So can you weigh in on how did you arrive at the point where you were like, Oh, we actually need to work on some, some issues like cross racially, that aren't about white people, white culture, as communities of color, how did you get there and tell me more about that?

Donna Barber  23:19

Well, I know for myself that I've had some experiences where we first moved to Portland, six years ago, I remember going having the opportunity to go on a tour of the Northwest that explored the racial history of that area. And and so there were a diverse group of people who were on this tour, and you got to hear about the distinct racial history of, you know, the Native community. The Japanese internment that like all the the Hawaiian experience, how that island was taken, and you heard all of this from people from those communities. But there was no expression of any type of affinity or for each other. Everyone's expressions and interactions, it was all about their community and dominant culture. And even though we were all together, and and had sometimes similar experiences and stories in pain and everything there was there did not feel to me to be an expression of any kind of shared compassion, or empathy with each other. There was just about themselves and I think that was so significant to me that like wow, I can be in this space in this room and we can have the almost the same story in some cases, and still have not developed an empathy for each other and that was really significant and like that we have some bridges that have to be crossed with in, you know, are between these communities. And in some cases, we have wounded each other. But I definitely felt as an African American person in this space that somehow we were the one place that all the other places didn't want to be. Because we had been so juxtaposed by majority culture to them that in order for their own survival, they had to try to distinguish themselves from us. And so those things were all very huge in that in that room for me over that weekend, and and in my understanding of what some of the issue was, like, how do we first create some healing in in empathy amongst, you know, between each other, because together, we are unstoppable. But we had to get over those bridges and deal with our own insecurities first. And then we could hear and be compassionate towards one another. And I think at the very beginning of starting voices, Leroy said something that because I was at that time, and I think it was, should it just be, you know, should this just be a thing for African American people? Or Should this be something that we include people of color at the beginning, and he had said, No, we need to wait until we're able to be at the table. And I guess from a position of equality, I think that if if we never had the opportunity to find our own voice, we're not ready to hear the voices of other people. So we had to spend those years initially where it was just a blank space, to get to a place where we felt strong enough, that now I can, I can listen to your story, and not be constantly comparing it to my story, all the My pain is bigger, whatever. When I feel like fully myself and feel comfortable in that I can let you be fully yourself and support you, and not be a competition to you.

Bethaney Wilkinson  27:14

So powerful. Yeah. And it makes me think of, like, if I think about different communities that I'm a part of, where there are these growing affinity spaces within them, I just feel like that what you just said is kind of like a, just a deep affirmation of the value of the space for one group, it's like, because we can't expect anyone to make that space for us, you can expect to, it's almost like for an individual person's healing journey, it's like you have to go to you got to go to your therapist, and I work on become more whole so that you can interact with the world in a way that's unhealthy, constructive, life giving. And I think the same thing applies to these groups that we create. So as you in recent years, I can think back to the gathering the Latin, Latin X, black, African American gathering, what have been some things that you've learned almost, maybe not best practices, because I feel like the journey of healing and flourishing isn't linear. But what are some things you've learned in those cross racial spaces that other teams or people could consider when they're ready?

Leroy Barber  28:16

 I think those spaces helps sharpen leaders of color to help us do our own work. So you know, an a book Pedagogy of the Oppressed, right, that talks about if you're not paying attention, like you can actually become like your oppressor, right? And you start to repeat what your oppressor has done to you, right. And so I think these spaces for people of color, understanding and knowing one another's journey, Help us not to become that, right. It sharpens our skills and our understanding of other people's oppression. That that pushes me deeper into thinking about how we solve these problems better. That's what it's done. For me. This is super obvious. But I think in the last last like year, or two of doing this work, specifically around bringing like black, Asian, Black, Latin X black native conversations, that the whole like, idea of diaspora has been really important to me that I don't even like, what is when you say Asian, like, What in the world are you? Like, right, right, like what first of all the most people on Earth in that diaspora, right. And so when I say Asian, I'm like talking about Korean Parramatta, not somebody from Thailand, right, yeah. Calcutta, right. Like, like, it's like, it's so. So, so I think that is important. It was a it's an important learning for me personally to remember that we're talking about a diaspora when we're talking about communities of color. And that is important for this work, to deepen and sharpen my understanding of other community. So

Donna Barber  30:08

I also think you can't minimize the importance of real relationships. Like I think that I have been gifted in my life that God has given the gift of these relationships with personal friends, who are parts of different communities of people, and who come from different places, and to get to know them to sit down across the dinner table to sit and to talk to one another, to ask questions to ask, to listen to story, it has been such a gift, and especially the older I get, the more I appreciate, and see the beauty that God has placed in all of these different communities and what is so special and, and unique about these different groups of people. And I feel very blessed to have the opportunity to have this richness in my life, and that we have been deliberate in wanting our children to get to know and be exposed to different groups of people and to hear their voices to help shape who they are. And so I think that also influences the desire to create the conversations and to the opportunity for, for people to come together and to know each other and to build communities, this multicultural communities, because I think somewhere me I'm always caring, if you only knew how awesome she was, you wouldn't love her. You only knew how amazing he was, you would want this person as your friend to but because the the intentional, deliberate, insidious work of racism has worked to keep us apart. We've been deprived of each other. And we're missing that in our lives and in our formation. And and I think God intended us to be formed by all these different groups. So we're working to try to give each other that to enter. And to honestly express to majority culture, you are missing out. The magnet, you I think that's part of the thing of saying why we have to go back and encourage people to go back to those spaces, is no matter how successful someone thinks they are, you are not nearly as successful as you could be. If you had if you allowed for a more rich expression of the world into whatever it is you're doing through diversity.

Bethaney Wilkinson  32:38

Yes. Oh, absolutely. And, and I love that too, because it's at the point now where, like science and research backs that up to like, statistically speaking, I think I read recently that companies that are more racially and ethnically diverse, like perform 34% Better than non regionally diverse companies like just and that could be I could that can go for nonprofit organizations for neighborhoods, like the more diversity and I'm thinking of cultural diversity that you're able to leverage. Just the better problem solvers you're in the more creative and more innovative, the better we all get to be. 

Donna Barber  33:15

Yeah, even in education, there was a report that came out last year, I think it was that about how all children benefit by having African American teachers, like even white children did better. But wow. After the desegregation began, there was so many black teachers that were fired, and, and pushed out of em schools. And so everyone loss as a result of that, and having like studies like that come out to show you have lost as a result of this, this was not a good thing, not just black children, but all children suffered because there's some unique special qualities that this black teacher brings, that everyone benefits from, and getting more and more people to understand that is hopefully part of the work that we do too.

Bethaney Wilkinson  34:12

Absolutely. Um, so I want to switch gears just to here to here to talk more about like organizations and teams, because you both have a lot of experience working across sectors and with boards and leading teams and directing things. And so I have a few questions in that vein. My first one is, what deep from your vantage point what can majority culture organizations do to better support leaders of color on their teams? Maybe it's even like a white leader or supervisor that might or majority culture leader or supervisor what can they do to be more effective, and empowering leaders of color?

Donna Barber  34:51

 I think is important initially that they acknowledge or consider that they have may have made some assumptions that may or may not be true. And assumptions about what people want what people think, what makes the space comfortable. What we should be doing that often if we have not asked people specifically, you may be operating and have built a whole company on faulty information. So I think that's really important. One of the things that we we know too, that often if you're in a, in a space, in even if there are people of color in the room, and if the majority of people in the room are not people going, you can ask a question, you can give an invitation. And there's some times this underlying assumption that, oh, they're not talking to me if I'm a person of color in the room, so I'm not necessarily even going to answer your question, I'm not going to contribute, because the is whether it's conscious or unconscious, I don't really think you want to know what I think. And so if you're in a majority culture leader, and you've been as taking that silence, as agreement, you may be wrong. And you may have to do some extra work to get to real honest feedback from the people. And then are you ready to hear that I was invited one time to come and look at a school because they it was a Christian school that had been predominantly white one it too, they thought reach out and serve more students of color, they wanted to see how can we improve this to draw more students of color. And so I just walked around the school with the school leader. And as we walked in talked, I was pointing out things, you know, we went into the library, and I was like, Oh, well, how many books do you have here that are written by authors of color? Who have lead characters that are people of color, who, you know, stories I mentioned to that interest in that area? We walked into the cafeteria. So what kind of food do you serve? And we know, and the more we talked in the the longer we walked, the more his hit the whole countenance kind of. Like, and after that, unfortunately, I never heard from him again, is it? It's kind of like the, in the Bible, the the ruler that went away sorrowful is that is how they look like, there's too much, too, that I haven't have never thought about before. And that's too much that I would have to change. And so I think, how do we present first to those leaders that there may be some things but don't be discouraged? You don't have to do it all at one time. But you got to do it. 

Bethaney Wilkinson  37:49

Yeah. I always want to be able to walk kind of I'm like, How can we translate that school walk for organizations that are like, Oh, we want to diversify. Like, okay, well, let's talk, let's have a moment where we walk through your metaphorical schools so that you know how much you're going to have to change. Yes, in order for this to be a productive reality for all parties. Yeah.

Leroy Barber  38:12

Yeah. Yeah, I think I would just add to that the serving on so many boards of two things. One is, in general, when you're the only person of color on a board and you have a different perspective. Like, for them in general, that board doesn't listen to the person of colors, instinct, right? Because sometimes it's so different. That it could inform a little bit but in general, that that that's taken that's gonna go on oddest nice, but we know corporate stuff better, right? So one is, one is listening to the instincts of the person of color in a room. And then to is for these organizations to get out of the practice of hiring leaders that they think they need to develop, right? Like we're gonna we're in a leadership development, like process here, right? I will push back strongly now of I don't want you to hire any person of color that you have to develop, I want you to hire a person of color, who knows what they're doing when they walk into a room, and they don't need any of you to develop any of their skills around this thing. We somehow have in Christian circles and in corporate circles, and we're at keep hearing this thing of, let's hire this person to train them to be let's start this. Let's start this process for these people. And I'm like, You know what, there's enough HBCU there's enough people of color, who are training leaders that you don't have to develop a leader. How identify a leader don't develop a leader, right? Like we're moving people into leadership identity For not development, and there's a distinct difference. And I think that we've been talking a lot about that like.

Bethaney Wilkinson  40:08

So I think I intuitively know what you mean. I'm wondering what can you say more about what's problematic about this leader development paradigm?

Leroy Barber  40:18

Well, it goes back to what we what we said right like that, the assimilation process, when you have to develop somebody they're going to, may think they're being developed, right? They're going to assimilate into what they what they think they need to know and do to be a part of that group. Right? Because you're not people of color come with some mission. Right? I joined a company because our joint organization, our church, because I, I want to be a part of what they're doing. So in a leadership development, space, you you acquiesce, right, you stepped back, and you kind of listen, and you kind of learn that process. Right? Not that that's bad. But that shapes you in a different way, as opposed to you're, we're hiring you, so that you can teach us and help us do this thing better? Because we don't know. Right? Those are two completely different things different person enters the room differently.

Bethaney Wilkinson  41:15

Oh, yeah. Wow. And the humility involved and being the lead and being the majority culture team members who will say I have something to learn, I find that that's actually pretty rare. Right? That's more rare than you would think. Interestingly enough, yeah.

Donna Barber  41:32

Enough, began to say to well, on both sides to young people, but also to the organizations and agencies and even government systems, that the young people, especially young leaders of color, are the people who will have the solutions to the problems that we are now facing as a society, whether whether or not they have them right now, or they will have them. But that is where that's who we're looking to, to solve the problems because we have not been able to do it. And so I've said to children, like we are waiting for you, because the grown ups do not know what they do. And they look at me. And I'm totally serious, like, they did their best. They tried really hard. But you see, we still have this homelessness issue, we still have, you know, educational problems, like and we've been trying for a long time. And we just, we did our best, but we really need you to come into to solve this for us. And one to say that we're looking that you have something already, right, that is in you some gifting knowledge, talents, excellence, you know, that is in you that we need. And saying that to young people, and saying that to young people in front of adults, is really important, because then it says also, then by default to them, that there are things you don't have, and you meet these people to come in to give you something, and to begin to get yourself in that mindset that you have done your best, but you haven't come up with a solution. And so perhaps, that lies in someone else, or it's somewhere else outside of yourself. Yeah, I think that's the hardest thing that supremacy develops into people that all the solutions are in you. And does not consider that it there could be someone else who brings something that I don't possess. But that's the reality.

Bethaney Wilkinson  43:42

Yeah. Okay, so, a couple more questions. Um, if there's a group of minority leaders who want to create something, not create voices exactly, but create this space for themselves? Where would you recommend that they start?

Leroy Barber  44:00

I would recommend that they gather themselves and talk about, like, some specific goals, right. I think, when we gathered and for voices, it was it was it was very specific, it was African American leaders who have been involved in some of this work for a while, what was their trajectory? And we worked from that premise, but listening to all the voices around the table, right? So voice is actually like we, it was our idea to bring people together, but it really is a it's a work of a lot of people. And a lot of voices. A lot of people speak into what we do. And so we think art, like that's a great idea. I love that and someone like I wouldn't do that. But like if we you know, we think that's going to be helpful to our process. Let's do it. So I would say to group starting start with With a community of people, and talk about what you want to what you want to see out of this in 10 years, right, in 10 years, what are you? What would you like to see if we started this today? And those those become super creative spaces, you know, my ideas, yeah, let's get something going. But I think opening up the space for everybody to speak in, and everybody to help create the goals is is powerful, right? And how you start something like that is important. 

Donna Barber  45:31

And I think renewing our minds that away from the individualism that we have been given, because that fosters competition. And so then you, you're coming together, but then you're still feel like you have to guard yourself or that you're competing with somebody, but our communities historically, were collaborative, right and not individualistic. And I think that's been a real value with the voices project, in this idea of promotion, is that I'm not afraid of you being successful, I'm going to work very hard to make you successful, where I hear opportunities for you, oh, I know, someone, you should have her come and speak, you should have him come and do this thing, deliberately and persistently. Because if you rise, we all rise, like getting back to that, that way of thinking and engaging with the world is really important. So I think for that that young group of leaders is letting go of ego, and this fear and this, you know, we've been pitted against each other. We're not against each other, we're for each other, how do I help you succeed and commit myself to your success? is we're doing that for one another. We're all going to benefit as a community.

Leroy Barber  46:59

Yeah, I think the word promote has kept us disciplined, right, like training and courage. Like we have three words train, encourage, and promote, the Promote has kept us disciplined, like, so some leader of color comes our way. And the question is, okay, we may not understand all that they're doing, but how are we going to promote this right, becomes a driver for us. And I think it has helped us. Not, it has helped us not be the center of voices. Yeah.

Bethaney Wilkinson  47:30

And I love what you're saying too, about, like, make it specific, like, given that you're able to say this is what drives us and help. Like, I think that's, that's something that I think I I've created spaces that were lacking the specificity. What are y'all doing here? And why and where are we going? And so I think that'll be that's really, that's really helpful. So my last question, even though I can ask you a million questions, um, the diversity gap, this entire project is about supporting organizations and teams who want to transform their cultures to be ones that support all people all gifts. And so as you consider the various organizations you've worked with, what are some of the biggest diversity gaps you see? And you can answer that however you want to? What are the diversity gaps you see in organizations? And then how can we close them?

Donna Barber  48:27

I think the culture of organizations, even when there can be a significant number of people of color, often still remain white, they still are monocultural. And I think that's a significant problem. And how you allow that space to be inclusive of and inviting to all these cultures, cultures that are represented, is really important. In everything you do constantly, is something really, right now, I'm working in some education spaces in Portland. And there's a lot of talk about equity lens, you know, how do we bring our equity lens to this? And it's how do you at all times, look at? are we including every culture in this? Are we making space for that? are we considering it? Or how many times are we just assuming that everybody wants to do it this way? Everybody likes this thing? Because that's the way it has always been, or that's what's dominant in majority culture. And so really, to to close that because you can bring in people and then you lose people. There's a lot of universities are having this problem with some, some other organizations where Oh, we recruit people of color, but they don't stay because the culture is is not supportive of them. Yeah, right. And so diversifying the culture is really important and having conversations to figure out what that means, in your particular space is important.

Leroy Barber  50:13

One big thing I think I would mean is if the if the person, the leader of that organization, ie president, whoever that might be, and, and the board that they report to the chair, if that those two persons are white, I would say they need to put people advisory people in their lives, that can speak into them, and, and push them to be intentional about diversity, I would almost go if that if that leader isn't willing to surround themselves with people of color to advise them, then there might not be ever be a safe place where people of color, it will continue to have diversity gaps. And that would that would be a big, big thing. I would think if we're if we're talking about how to change the culture of an organization that leaders got to do that work. And if they're not intentional about that work is not.

Bethaney Wilkinson  51:17

Gosh, so many good takeaways from that conversation. I think the biggest part that's been resonating with me is this idea around instincts. I don't know how this hit you. But Leroy says that if you're a white person, you actually cannot trust your instincts related to issues of race and ethnicity. Because you haven't been socially formed to do so in a way that's helpful for all people. And yet, if you're a person of color, you actually need to trust your instincts more than you normally do. And so I think that process of learning how to figure out when do I need to step up and when do I need to step back is something that's really important for all of us. And so, I hope that you also found something in this conversation that was really interesting to you, I highly recommend that you just take a moment to pause and reflect, consider what's resonating and might resonate because you didn't like it, like maybe it felt uncomfortable. That's okay, learn from that. It might be resonating because you heard your story reflected for the first time in a long time. Lean into that, um, capture the thing that's sticking out to you write it down, share it with a friend and I will catch you next time. Thank you for listening to The Diversity Gap podcast. If you've been challenged or inspired by what you've heard, please rate and review the show. You can also subscribe to make sure you never miss an episode. If you have thoughts or questions I'd love to hear from you connect with me at thediversitygap.com or on Instagram at The Diversity Gap. This episode was produced by DJ opdiggy for Soul Graffiti Productions