Trauma Informed Workplaces w/ Katharine Manning
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, important, leaders, organizations, space, conversation, support, feel, trauma, person, create, share, katharine, thinking, experience, talking, story, learning, race, move
SPEAKERS
Bethaney Wilkinson, Katharine Manning
Bethaney Wilkinson 00:00
Hi, this is Bethaney Wilkinson. Welcome to The Diversity Gap podcast, the home of race conscious leadership. Hey there good people. Welcome to another episode of The Diversity Gap Podcast. I'm so glad you're here. I know I say that probably every week. But it's true. I'm really happy that you're here. And I've been thinking a lot lately about all of the leaders and teams and organizations I've had the privilege of supporting over the past few months specifically. And I know that when one is scrolling through the news, or scrolling through social media, it can feel like the world is ending and like there's no hope. But each and every day people like you show up to the work of diversity, equity and inclusion, you are intentional about your racial identity you are learning you are leveraging the resources and power and time and energy that you have to create a more diverse organizational culture to make sense of your own story. And what that means for the life you lead the organizations you're a part of. And I just want to commend you for doing that really good and important work, you are not alone. There are hundreds and 1000s, if not millions of people all around the world who care so deeply about this work, who are showing up to listen to this podcast and other podcasts or reading books, who are having the hard conversations. And I just again, want to commend you for your commitment to this work, whether you are a huge fan of the diversity gap podcast or if you're someone who was sent this episode, and you're listening for the first time, thank you for being a supporter of the show. Now, before we get into today's conversation, I want to extend an invitation to those of you who are in New York City. On Monday, May 9, I am co-hosting an event sponsored by and really curated by a company called Of Color. Of Color is a financial wellness platform for companies and organizations really seeking to address some of the resource gaps that employees of color face mostly in their corporate workspaces. And so if you are in New York City, on Monday, May 9, we are holding an event called Disruptive Discourse. And we're really getting into some of the tensions that exist in DEI work and the role that corporations can play in closing the racial wealth gap. It's going to be a great time, there is an incredible lineup of presenters and thought leaders, mostly in the financial wellness space. And so if you're thinking about how do we deepen our work, beyond just you know, our diversity trainings, and advocating for representation, which is important. And if you're really wondering, what role do corporations play in addressing issues of racial inequity, then this is the event for you. You can learn more about the event at www.ofcolor.com And you can also check it out at the link in our show notes. And I forgot to mention that this event is free. And so you are able to go to the website and sign up free of charge New York City Monday, May 9th. Today's guest on the show is Katharine Manning. Katharine Manning is an attorney. She is an author, and she is a guide for organizations and leaders who are seeking to create more trauma informed and empathetic workplaces. I first connected with Katherine a few months ago; our publisher connected us because our books came out around the same time and I was doing this LinkedIn Live series having conversations with authors at the intersection of diversity, equity and inclusion in the workplace. And Katharine is one of the people they connected me to because of the nature of her work. And oh my goodness, we hit it off. I loved talking to her both during and before and after our conversation, I realized that the internet is such a magical place because it's really incredible when you're able to connect with a person so sincerely and to become you know, offline friends. And even though I haven't met Katharine in person, yet, she is definitely one of those folks that I really can't wait to continue to get to know. She is so thoughtful. So wise has incredible experience. And what I appreciate most about her work is just how essential it is. We are all carrying around so much trauma, and I don't use that word lightly at all i i use it knowing the fullness of what it means for some of us that we are carrying around personal traumas that we are navigating collective trauma. And whether we like it or not, we're bringing that stuff with us to work every single day. And as leaders and as people who are creating cultures within organizations, it is so important that we learn the skills to hold space for the human experience of the people that we lead. And I think that becoming a trauma informed workplace is such an important part of that process. And so In this conversation with Katharine, you're going to hear a little bit of her story, you're going to hear a little bit about what it looks like as a leader to practice the skills of being trauma informed of cultivating empathy. And I really believe that you're going to walk away with some key nuggets of wisdom and insight that will seriously transform the way you are able to hold space for the people you lead the people you work with, and probably just, you know, your friends and your family members, just everyday humans and your real life. And so I really hope you enjoyed this conversation, I hope that you learned something new and that you're able to take it back with you into whatever your sphere of influence is. Enjoy. All right, Katharine, I'm so excited to be talking to you today, kind of like we just established before we started recording, we have good conversations. So this will be fun. I'm so excited to well, I'm for this podcast, I kick off all my conversations asking my guests. When did you first know that you had a race or ethnic identity? When did that first become apparent to you?
Katharine Manning 06:19
You know, I think somewhat unusually, for a white person, it was pretty early for me. When I was four, my family, which is all white people moved into a not just predominantly an entirely black neighborhood in Wilmington, Delaware. And when I was in kindergarten, I was the only white kid in my class. And I remember being so aware of that, that I was a minority, wanting so much to be friends with the other little girls and them sort of thinking of me as a novelty. And thinking, you know, I was sort of like cute or fun to like, talk to for a second, but I was not somebody they were actually going to be friends with, you know, I was never going to be invited to their homes. I remember actually one moment where I was sitting on the carpet like you do in kindergarten, and all the little girls came over and they were touching my hair. Because they had never touched a white person's hair before. And, you know, they were all talking over my head about my hair. And I was thinking if I just sit here very still, maybe they'll like me and want to hang out with me. So I think for me, it was pretty early for that experience because of that experience. But it was a really short experience. We lived in that neighborhood until I was in second grade. And then we moved to Northern Virginia and I went to a predominantly white school and all of my schools from then on and all of my workplaces from then on have been predominantly white.
Bethaney Wilkinson 08:07
I mean, it's such an interesting, I mean, there's lots of interesting layers to that story. But what is striking to me hearing you tell it is just how segregated these spaces are. And I know that has a historical legacy. And it's been intentional, and by design and and I also am aware of human psychology and the tendency towards, you know, being with people who are like you for a variety of reasons, some of which I don't think are all bad. But it does speak to like how the school spaces are a incredibly formative and be so just so segregated. I don't know, that sticks out to me. What do you think about that?
Katharine Manning 08:48
Yeah, I totally agree. And actually, when my wife and I were looking at neighborhoods to move into when we knew, you know, we were going to be raising kids together. We purposely chose a neighborhood where the schools were more diverse, at least there was a good amount of racial and economic diversity, because I knew how important it is when you establish a comfort level early on with people of other races. And you know, it's really hard to make up for it if you grew up in a really segregated environment.
Bethaney Wilkinson 09:25
Absolutely, I it makes me think I've been talking to a good friend a lot lately about just how I don't know like how the they're like these different sets of racial narratives that we have as people like there are the racial narratives we inherited from our families. Then there are all of the like, at least in this cultural moment, all the political narratives. And then you also have like people's lived experiences that don't always fit into any of those categories. And so a quick example how I was talking to my husband about this last night. And we were talking about how there was this period right after chattel slavery ended. And this is going somewhere, I promise. There's this period, right after chattel slavery where in some southern communities like there was a lot, especially for lower income people, there was a lot of multiracial interaction, relationships, friendships. And then it was after a period of, you know, 510 years that Jim Crow segregation was instituted to create and maintain the racial hierarchy, that that was beginning to dissolve in the immediate ending of slavery. And so it was an interesting conversation, because it doesn't really fit into any of my box. It's for segregation, or for race right now, like, but it's just what came to mind as you talked about the school that you're choosing. And yes, when people grow up in communities, with lots of different kinds of people, maybe some of those prejudices and biases are less impactful, maybe, I don't know, what does that spark in you?
Katharine Manning 11:05
You know, that story, to me is like, simultaneously really hopeful and really depressing. Because I feel like, on the one hand, wow, look how powerful the government had to be our systems of oppression had to be to tear apart people who our instinct was, to love each other care about each other, build friendships, and, you know, like, loving marriages, and all of those things, right. But on the other hand, it's really depressing, because while there was a lot invested in separating people, right, there was a really strong vested interest and hasn't gone away. So I feel Yeah, I feel simultaneously hopeful in that it is natural enough to want to connect. And, you know, there's a Maya Angelou quote, I love about something like it is, it becomes nearly impossible to hate somebody, when you look them in the eyes and see them as human. I, I often think that bigotry can't withstand proximity that if you have a project with somebody, you guys are baking together, right? Whatever it is, you're doing something with somebody, you will connect with them, you will bond with them, and I don't care like how you were raised, how like racist you came into it with, it is nearly impossible, once you start connecting with somebody on a human level for that to withstand. And so you end up sometimes people do these like, well, you're not, you know, you're not like all black people or something like they do these like weird things in their heads to try to fit with their understandings. But to me, what really it comes down to is, when we connect with each other, all of those things, they just you realize how dumb they are. I don't know. I mean,
Bethaney Wilkinson 13:03
I really resonate with I mean, I think, and this has been a part of what I've been sorting out now, especially being on the other side of, you know, I mean, on the other side, we're never on the other side of racism or the other side of a pandemic. But having moved through a wave, a really intense wave of activism over the last couple of years. And as I think about what the future holds for multiracial communities and organizations, it's like, it helps so much to have frameworks for understanding race or difference or various systems of dominance and oppression, it is so helpful to be able to say, Oh, we see inequality here, we see inequity here, we see injustice here. Let's unpack it so that we can start to take it apart. But then how do you move forward in such a way that you're not constantly putting yourself and others back into those boxes and categories? And I don't, I don't know that I have a question in that. But I know for myself, I've just been sorting out like, Okay, I understand how maybe racism is working here. But are these categories fixed? Do they change? And how do we as individuals and leaders hold space for for more nuanced, I suppose as we move forward together? Does that? Does that make you think of anything? Yeah.
Katharine Manning 14:25
I mean, honestly, it mostly makes me think of your book. Like, your book is so helpful on that front. And just explaining why it is that people might want a minority only space, whatever your minority status is that there is a relaxation of the pressure to conform that is really important and needed and revitalizing and that doesn't mean that you don't like The majority culture or you're like mad at them, this is not a we have to separate because you are horrible this is this is an important space that we need to preserve for ourselves.
Bethaney Wilkinson 15:13
Yeah, I don't know if I wrote about this explicitly, but I was revisiting a blog post that I wrote years ago on on these different spaces that are needed. And maybe I did, I don't remember, is it bad that I can't remember. But I remember thinking like, Okay, we need spaces for learning, we need spaces for healing. And then we need spaces for bridging. And they're actually three different things. And so maybe if you come from a dominant culture, racially or in terms of any other aspect of your identity, you might need a space to just go learn what's happening. And if you have been negatively impacted by those systems of domination or oppression, you need the spaces for healing and connection, the relaxation spaces. And then we also because we live in a multiracial, pluralistic society, and we work on the same teams, in organizations, we need spaces for bridging and to practice those skills for bridging, which I think could be a good segue into your work related to empathy, because I think any bridging work we attempt to do, I mean, empathy has to be at the forefront.
Katharine Manning 16:22
Absolutely. And to me, it's also about leadership, you can't be a good leader in an organization, if you aren't seeing and supporting all of your employees and co workers to you are just really hampering your ability and your organization's ability to move forward to surge forward, you know, to really fly and the way that you need to, if you have a percentage of your organization that doesn't feel heard, doesn't feel supported, doesn't feel like they can be them false to their full selves, in that environment.
Bethaney Wilkinson 17:03
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I also think it's, even for leaders, they have to have their own to become the kind of leaders who can care for their teams, they have to have their own spaces for learning and killing and bridging as well. So that they're not putting that burden on their team, you know, teach me all the things about your experience, or, or I don't know, acting as if you know, your peers in a way that you're not because there's a power dynamic that has to, you have to at least be aware of, so that you're not relating to your employees in ways that are extractive or exploitative, or whatever it might be. So yeah, I think you're spot on that leaders have to do their own work to prepare to lead their teams, which is so complex, I would imagine.
Katharine Manning 17:46
I'm so glad you brought that up. You know, it reminds me a friend of mine, told me about a work conversation. This was right after George Floyd was murdered. And I think a lot of organizations were like, we have to do something we don't know what to do. And so her boss, the way that she handled it was she had a team meeting, she said, Okay, well, I have asked, you know, Bob, Carol and Dan, say, I don't know what their real names were Bob, Carol and Dan to open up about their experiences of oppression. Okay, so these are the three black members of the team. We've asked them to speak up, you know, in this meeting, and which I mean, just so awful in a million ways, right? So Bob, says, Okay, I'm going to do it. And he starts talking, and he shares this really personal story about discrimination and bias that he'd experience and horrific things that he had encountered as an African American man, he actually started to cry in the meeting. And then he finished and the boss said, Well, we're out of time. So we'll end it there and come back next week. I mean, I see you shaking your head, horrible, horrible. I mean, just from the very beginning, understanding that if you are calling on people who are members of a non dominant culture, to share their experiences of oppression, that is a really, really deep personal thing that you are asking. So, I mean, there are a lot of really amazing speakers out there who are paid to do this and have done a lot of work so that they feel comfortable doing it. Think about bringing somebody else in to lead that discussion have that kind of interaction. Asking an employee to do that, I think is really, really a lot to be asking of somebody. And then to me with my own background, working on issues of trauma and how do we support people who have shared a story of trauma to me just so so important is when somebody shares something, you have to acknowledge it. You can't just move on to something else. You have to thank them. Thank you for sharing that. That was, you know, I'm so sorry for everything you've been through something that shows them that you are grateful for everything that they've opened up in this way for you.
Bethaney Wilkinson 20:28
Yeah. Yes, I also. So maybe this is good direction for leaders who are listening. I also tell leaders, hey, you might need to hire someone you to bring someone in. If you are looking to understand oppression in the world, because it's not your experience. There are books and podcasts, there are coaches, like get the support that you need. And then also consider inviting someone to facilitate those conversations for your team. Because it is, it's layered. It's emotional. It's painful. It's just really tender, you know, because like you said, it's so it's so personal. We want to honor people and their boundaries. And I also recommend that leaders make these opportunities voluntary, not required for anyone on your team, because research shows that it backfires. But it's a requirement of sorts. But yeah, I just think that's, that's really good. How would you? I'm curious, do you have anything else that you recommend leaders or people do when they receive someone's story like the gift of someone's story, like how else can people provide support or respond? What are some general good practices and then not so good practices.
Katharine Manning 21:40
So this is really what my book is about. It's, it's called the Empathetic Workplace: Five Steps to a Compassionate, Calm and Confident Response to Trauma on the Job. And I developed these five steps after working with crime victims for many years, I was a lawyer for the Justice Department for about 15 years and helped craft department policy and did a lot of training and also consulted on cases, specifically around how to support victims. And one of the things I started to realize was that we all need the same things when we are sharing a story of trauma. So it doesn't matter if it's because you're a victim of crime, or because you've just found out that your spouse has COVID, or you are struggling with an addiction, whatever it is that you are personally struggling with, when you share that with somebody, there are a few things that we should be doing to provide an empathetic response to that story of trauma. So those five steps and I have an acronym, in part because I spent so long as a government lawyer that I just think in acronyms now. But also because I know it can be really hard in those moments, it's stressful when somebody sharing something really heavy we can. It can be difficult for us to think clearly, as well. So I wanted to give people an acronym and the steps are Listen, acknowledge, share, empower, and return. The acronym is laser. And I like to say it's to help you stay laser focused on the person in front of you and what they need. Bethaney, you want me to go into it a little bit more?
Bethaney Wilkinson 23:19
Yeah, I'd love for you to. Okay.
Katharine Manning 23:21
Just to get into that a little bit more. Step one, listen, is really active listening. Active listening is more than just being quiet and letting the person talk. It means creating the circumstances where they feel comfortable talking, ask questions, open ended questions, what happened next. That's how you show them that you want to hear what they're saying. Watch your body language, make sure that you're looking at them head on that you are maintaining eye contact, you aren't crossing your arms or otherwise, adopting a defensive stance. One thing to help with that is to manage your own emotional response. Sometimes when somebody is sharing a story, it can bring up stuff for us. And that can be based on our own experience, it can be based on just something about the story, and how we feel for this person, it can be just based on how we're feeling that day. So it's normal to have an emotional response. You just want to manage your emotion in a way that you keep from pulling focus on to you. You don't want them to suddenly think oh, I have to, you know, make her feel better. So some things,
Bethaney Wilkinson 24:28
then yeah. Oh, sorry. Well, I just wanted to jump in. I don't know if you were maybe even gonna get to this. I think that when it comes to race, specifically, the letter L is such a big part of it, because I feel like so many people don't get to the other side of listening because if I as a, as a black woman come to my white male boss and I say, Hello, you did this harmful thing. And however whether I say it well or not so well. There really is I mean, there are layers. There's the context of the working relationship has this leader, pro We're actively creating a workplace environment where I can be honest, that's like a whole cultural question. But then to when it comes to race, I think that it can be such an inflaming topic for, for white folks that sometimes the man is like so much trust is broken, I would say, when perhaps leaders who are from a more dominant socially dominant group aren't yet practiced at managing their emotional responses to these identity based feedback moments.
Katharine Manning 25:35
You mentioned that that's 100%. True, there is this defensiveness, you can see people start to, you know, breathe more rapidly, maybe their hands get a little shaky. This is an emotional response. And I think, a few things I would advise for leaders, anytime that you feel like this conversation is hard, I don't want to hear what this person is saying. Keep breathing, for one, just take a deep breath. Second, name your feeling. People say name it to tame it, just check in with yourself, I'm getting really angry, just noting it to yourself, you're not saying it to the other person, just noting it to yourself. I'm getting really angry about what she's saying. Just that alone will help bring down your temperature. And then another thing, this is a trick that I learned years ago, doing hotline work, is pretend that you are a reporter who is later going to have to write a story about what this person said. So you're pulling yourself out of the conversation a little bit. And just focusing on this person's words. What is she saying? Can I can I adequately repeat back? Could I repeat back what it is that she is saying right now just causes you to focus more on what they're saying? And helps bring down your own temperature?
Bethaney Wilkinson 27:02
Yes, I have a good friend who co leads I may have told the story on the podcast before. But she co leads different workshops with me and, and she's a white woman and she talks the way I've heard her teach other people how to navigate these moments is to think of like, how you're feeling like it's a brick or a log that's in front of you. And you're actively choosing in the moment to just step over the log, you're not throwing it away. You're not saying it doesn't exist. You're not You're not saying I that you're not valid, or you're not important. You're just saying right now I am making a conscious choice to focus less on this log of how I'm feeling right now and to focus more on what this person is saying to me. And so I think that is just, I mean, it's gold. It's really important.
Katharine Manning 27:46
Absolutely. I love that. Yeah. And then the next step is we have to acknowledge that somebody has shared something with us. So acknowledgement is really simple. But to me, it's the fulcrum of the whole conversation. One of my favorite quotes is Teddy Roosevelt. And he said, people don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care. If we don't show them that we heard them, they will never hear anything that we have said. Literally, all you need to say is thanks for sharing that. Or I'm sorry about everything you've been going through. Very, very simple. The things that we want to avoid saying though, are things that either deny or distract from what they've said, like you misunderstood. That is a big denial. Distraction is well, you know, my sister dealt with something similar, and she was just fine. And here's how she handled it. Let me tell you about that. Wow, what we want to do instead is just have a moment where we sit with this person in the experience that they're having, and acknowledge them for sharing it with us.
Bethaney Wilkinson 28:56
I wonder if part of the reason that can be so tricky. I'm even thinking just, you know, talking to my friends and my family, like not even workplace but I think it can be vulnerable to feel a level of powerlessness about a big thing that someone shares with you. And I think that might be part of why we jump to distraction or to fixing it because we don't want to feel the vulnerability or the powerlessness of not being able to really solve the problem for people, especially the ones we care about. Yeah, certainly.
Katharine Manning 29:26
It's so hard and counter intuitively, the most powerful thing we can do is sit with them in that moment. When you are experiencing a trauma, it is so hard to find somebody who's willing to sit with you in that place. There's a friend of mine whose son died when he was 20 months old, just awful, horrific kind of experience. The one of the things that happened to her they had been in a like a parent kid Did playgroup and when she got home from the hospital after he had died, she said not one of the other parents from the playgroup reached out to her to say anything about her son's death. And she thinks it's because they had no idea what to say it was just so huge, and they thought there's nothing I can say that is anywhere equal to what she has experienced. But what that meant is she was completely alone. What she has said about that experience is anything would have been better than nothing at all saying the wrong thing is better than saying nothing. So that's what I would urge listeners when you are feeling that. I don't know what to say, I can't possibly, you know, say anything, anything I say is just going to sound dumb compared to what this person has experienced. Know that just being there is so tremendously helpful and healing for them. And don't worry about having magic words or saying the exact right thing just show up.
Bethaney Wilkinson 31:07
Okay, so we've done l listen, a acknowledge what is S, if you can remind us one more time.
Katharine Manning 31:12
Yeah, S is share. And what I mean by that is share information. In my work with crime victims, I saw again and again that they all craved information didn't matter if you were a victim of identity theft, or terrorism or child exploitation. Everybody wanted more information. And I think that's a pretty common thing. When our lives feel completely out of control, we want to we want more information to help us feel more in control. And so if we are in a workplace situation, somebody has come to us for help. One of the ways we can help them is by sharing information with them. And that can be information about the incident, if there's something we know about it. It can be information about the process going forward, here's how these complaints are handled. Here's about how long it takes. These are the people involved. It can be information even about your organization's values, things like we take these issues very seriously, that can be helpful. And even sharing what you don't know or can't share. For instance, saying, as we conduct this investigation, we're going to be talking to a lot of people and gathering a lot of information, I can't share with you everything we find out because it's important that everybody's recollection be their own and not colored by what other people are saying. But at the end, we will provide you with a report that includes all of our findings.
Bethaney Wilkinson 32:36
Yes, I, okay, I want to jump to the E, I have more thoughts on the s as well. But I do want to i My hope is that by walking through these one by one, our listeners will be able to track with them. For me, what's the again,
Katharine Manning 32:50
is empower. And I really think of this step as being as important for us as listeners as it is for the person and trauma. A lot of us are fixers, I am one myself, it sounds like you might be too it's really hard to see somebody in pain and not be able to make it better for them. So through this step, I'm hoping to remind people that this person is going to have to walk their own path to healing and they're going to need to walk it without us. We can't walk it for them. I can't just scoop them up carrying them on my back and say like, you know what I'm going to, I'm going to not only give you a referral to a great therapist, I'm going to make the appointment for you. If you know what, I'll drive you. I'll sit there outside, make sure it all went okay and set up the next appointment. We don't want to do that. We want to just find out what is it that they need? Ask how can I help you what would be most useful for you right now. And then try to provide those maybe they would like a referral. Maybe they're saying I'm not ready for that right now. But I might come back. Remember that the goal here is to empower them, give them the tools that will be helpful for them.
Bethaney Wilkinson 34:00
And then our is to respond is to return actually, I'm I knew that I was on the wrong line.
Katharine Manning 34:08
Yeah, so return means literally checking in on the person later how you doing? Is there anything else you need? Did you forget something, you know, but also it's a return to ourselves. And that's the self care piece, recognizing that supporting people and trauma takes a toll on us as well. And so we have to do what we can to protect ourselves. Take and I always say the best defense is a good offense. So having a regular self care routine, like often that falls in the category of exercise and or some sort of art or prayer or mindfulness or something like that, that you can commit to on a daily basis is really really important.
Bethaney Wilkinson 34:52
Absolutely. Well I love your book so much because you break down the laser method but you just described for us but you give just So many more details. And so for listeners who are wanting more information who are wanting to practice these skills, because I do think it's okay to say, well, I need to practice this. Katherine's book is just a really great place to start. Katharine, I'm wondering about organizational culture, like broadly. So there are the actions we can do as individuals to to be better space holders for people's stories, especially their stories of trauma. But I'm also wondering what you have seen leaders do boards of directors, do you like how have you seen people create cultures where we're holding these sorts of spaces is as a positive and and go to activity? Have you seen that a lot in institutional spaces? And if so, what does that look like?
Katharine Manning 35:52
Absolutely. There are a few things I think leaders can do to help create environments where people feel comfortable coming forward and sharing their story of trauma, this is taking steps toward creating a trauma informed organization. Some of the things that are important are making sure that we have resources available for people who need them. That can include things that a lot of organizations have like an employee assistance program, flexible work options, all of those things are great to have, but also be creative and mindful of what might be useful for people. So a lot of organizations recently have started to include culturally specific therapeutic options, I think that's a great thing to have on your roster. If it's not already. I've also seen some organizations begin to offer support for people who have gone through a miscarriage. So giving time off for that kind of work. Specific support for people who are in abusive relationships is also really important to consider. And then there are also time specific needs. So there was a man I worked with who's the CEO of a very large company in India, and he saw in the height of their experience with a pandemic, it was really, really difficult for people to get medical care. And he went out and contracted with a company that would provide facilitation and support around finding medical care when you needed it. So his employees could call up this service, if they were saying, you know, I'm sick, or a family member is sick, and they would find them a hospital bed in a time where they were very, very hard to find. And when I think about what he did, in that moment, when people were so desperate and scared, and the loyalty that he gained through that, I mean, you showed up for me in a time where I was terrified for my own life for my family member's life. And you provided me the support that I needed, is really incredible. And it's something that will last forever, that kind of the good feeling that comes from that the trust that he was able to garner through taking those kinds of actions. So I think it's important for organizations to be aware of what people need, and then do what they can to try to provide it. The other thing is, it's not helpful to have all of these great resources if you don't talk about them. So you have to talk about them and talk about them widely. You don't know everybody who needs miscarriage support or who might really benefit from culturally specific therapy. So you've got to talk about it widely. Make sure everybody is aware of it, talk about it repeatedly as well, because maybe they don't need it now. But in six weeks, they do and it won't even register right now. But when they are looking for it, if you if you bring it up, that'll be really, really valuable. And then the final thing, I really think leaders need to do more walking the walk. It is one thing to say to everybody. EAP is phenomenal. They're a really great resource. And I highly recommend everybody use them. It is very, very different. When the leader says EAP is phenomenal. They are free, they're confidential. I've used them myself, and they've been so helpful to me. If we model that it is okay to use the supports, we are going to have so much more of an impact than just telling people that they're out there. Yeah, can you what is EAP? Oh, the employee assistance program. Okay, so a lot of organizations have it and it's usually an in house resource that will give referrals to things like mental health supports, but really a wide array. If you're looking for help with elder care, for instance, or all kinds of things they can help with that they're really phenomenal. The overwhelming majority of large corporations have it and something like 12% of people have ever used it.
Bethaney Wilkinson 40:06
Wow. I mean, I love that the the simplicity of communicating the services that exists and doing it repeatedly doing it widely, because it takes the pressure off of, you know, the person who is experiencing the thing to go find they care, it's just, I think that accessibility is just so it's so simple and important. So I appreciate you, you sharing that idea. Because so much is missed, because people just don't know about it.
Katharine Manning 40:33
Yeah, and they might not even think that that would be the type of thing that they could get through work, or a lot of times maybe don't even realize that that's what they need. But if we can offer it up, it can be incredibly helpful to people.
Bethaney Wilkinson 40:47
I would imagine to that there are some sunlight cultural dynamics, as well, for those who come from cultures where it's family cultures, or like, ethnic cultures where it's not, it's frowned upon to live to raise your hand and to share what you need. And to make those kinds of personal requests. I think for many of us, we aren't practiced at it or trained in it or, or we come from, again, family cultures, or ethnic cultures where that's not okay, you know, you you kind of bear it on your own. And I think that creating these resources, sharing them, it kind of it's at least one, it removes one barrier to entry, keeping people from getting what they need. And I just think that's really important.
Katharine Manning 41:33
Yeah, absolutely. And I do think that the leaders, modeling that is really important, as well, it really shows that your values are not just on paper, that you're lifting them, that we actually really, really do want you to recognize your own needs, and that it's okay to set a boundary when you need to.
Bethaney Wilkinson 42:00
So good. Well, Katharine, well, I want it Do you have any questions for me? Before we before I wind the plane? No pressure, I just want to create a moment in case you do.
Katharine Manning 42:11
I would love to hear and I don't know if this is something you want to include on the podcast, or not? Like I always feel like when you and I talk, we could just I would love to hear Bethany, in your experience facilitating conversations along the lines that we've talked about conversations about race and ethnicity and organizations. What are some of the things that you have been able to do to create an environment where people feel comfortable having that conversation and they feel safe?
Bethaney Wilkinson 42:42
Yeah, you know, in my experience, it really comes down to a few pretty simple things, I think, one creating a container that feels safe through mutual agreements. And so beginning the conversation, beginning the facilitated exercise, saying, hey, here are the things we're committed to, we're committed to confidentiality, what said here stays here, we're committed to speaking for ourselves. So we're going to use a lots of I statements, I think I feel we're committed to only sharing our stories unless we have the express permission from the other person, whether they're in the room or not in the room to share their story. We are going to and sometimes depending on the nature of the group, it could be something as simple as we're going to speak with respect. And here's what respect means in this context. So I often ask the facilitator will bring some agreements that we can share. And then I always invite the group to say, hey, what would feel good to you? What would make this feel safe to you? I think if we're in person, little things like closing the door, or opening the door, can change the environment? are we sitting in a circle? Or are we sitting at a table? Like where's the focal point of our attention? So making some really intentional room design decisions will facilitate a certain kind of conversation? are we sharing power? Does one person have power? So I think that's something that leaders and people who are facilitating, can be thinking about. And then I also when it comes to race and ethnicity, specifically, I almost always try to have diverse representation of that who's facilitating so if I'm facilitating a multiracial group, I want to have a partner who is different from me so that we can models cross racial collaboration for the group. And I also really value having those affinity spaces. And so if we're doing deep identity work related to race, I don't want white folks who feel like they can't be honest, because they don't know how it's going to affect their black employees. I don't want the Asian American employees to feel like they can't be honest because they don't want to be judged by another employee. And so having those affinity spaces so that we can do our work together and do our work separately is really, really important.
Katharine Manning 44:58
Excellent. Thank you.
Bethaney Wilkinson 45:00
Oh, yeah, yeah, of course. Um, it's funny, I haven't thought about the things that I do until you asked me. But there really is an element of design that goes into making spaces constructive and, and effective.
Katharine Manning 45:13
Absolutely. And I love that you're, you're creating such clarity before you begin, and that I think, really makes such a difference in people's sense of safety, like, I know the rules here, you know what I need to do to not violate them. And I also know that other people are not going to take advantage of this space to share my story. For instance, without my permission, I think that's really, really smart and thoughtful.
Bethaney Wilkinson 45:41
And I do think for people who are listening, it's a to take the time it takes to create the status space, because it does take a good bit of time to establish that clarity. And then also start thinking through how you will address it if those boundaries are violated, which I'm not an expert on, I'm learning so much right now about repair and accountability and how to do this in a collective space. But the reality is that people don't always respect those those boundaries. And, and it's important to at least move towards what's our process for when these boundaries are violated. So that's just something I want to put in people's heads to think about. I don't have a solution. But I do I do want people to be thinking about it.
Katharine Manning 46:25
Yeah, I think it's so important, because if we don't, I mean, if we don't enforce the boundary, it's not a boundary. Absolutely. And it's in some ways, worse than not establishing it in the first place. Because you've just told people it's a boundary and then allowed it to be violated. And now they don't know, they not only don't feel safe in this space, they don't trust you and what you're saying going forward. So I do think it's really, really important that we find ways to address it. And maybe that is also something that happens at the beginning of conversation about what we will do as a group, if that's violated, or just as facilitators getting comfortable. Saying, stop, stop, hang on, hang on. Wait, wait. Remember, what we said was, we're only going to share our own story. So let's just rewind, do you have a piece of this that you want to share that is specific to your own experience?
Bethaney Wilkinson 47:22
Yeah, yes. Yeah, I do. I think naturally facilitators are all facilitators, but some of us, part of why we are facilitators is because we are a practice that kind of taking that back seat and holding the space. And so it can be a bit of a skill to know, okay, now's the moment for me to step up or speak out or to or to be more firm than maybe I would be otherwise.
Katharine Manning 47:43
Yeah, yeah, I had to do it in a class one time. One of the things that I teach a class on victims rights, and one of the things that I just, I'm always trying to be mindful of is you don't know who's in the room. And I remember one of my students at one point said, Well, you know, you know, a parent whose child has died. I mean, I don't I don't think, you know, those people ever come back from that. And I thought, I don't know, like, there could be somebody in this room whose parent has lost a child, and I don't want them walking away thinking my parent is permanently damaged or something. So I, I stopped her. And I said, Hang on, hang on, hang on. You know, I've known people who have lost children, and it is devastating, and certainly life altering, but you can still go on to have beautiful, really impactful important, meaningful lives after that. I just want to make that clear to everybody. But yes, please go on.
Bethaney Wilkinson 48:43
Yes. So yeah, such a skill and super important. Really, again, contributing to that safety, like really seeing everyone, but then also acknowledging in a way that you can't see everyone. And so how do you move forward with with as much care as possible, I think, rich invitation.
Katharine Manning 49:03
Yeah, yeah. And it's not about you know, anybody is bad. Like that student wasn't bad at all. It was just like, hey, let's remember. Right.
Bethaney Wilkinson 49:15
Well, my last question for you is kind of a broad one. I don't know how it's going to land. But I'd love to hear what you are learning about race, or about your racial identity right now. In life
Katharine Manning 49:28
There's a big one.
Bethaney Wilkinson 49:30
Yeah, take your time or Life and Leadership, however you want to think about it.
Katharine Manning 49:34
Okay. Well, one of the things and I don't know that I have formulated thoughts on this, but I am thinking a lot right now about empathy and inclusion. And what it is that we can be doing as we are talking about these concepts that I feel like right now are treated separately in leadership. Um, but I feel like you really can't have one without the other. So I've been thinking a lot about how do we build conversations around both of those topics together, getting to what we were talking about at the beginning of the episode with recognizing that empathy is so central to building connections with people. And also, our sense of inclusion in an organization, a team a space is so dependent upon feeling seen as who we are. So what is it that we can be doing to help organizations have that kind of skill resource training conversations to be able to meet both of these needs all of these needs?
Bethaney Wilkinson 51:00
So good. Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's all I have for us today, Katherine, anything that you want to share with the people any way they can find you, or anything that you want to amplify right now?
Katharine Manning 51:13
Yeah, so you can always go to my website, katharinemanning.com, which is k a t h a r i n e m a n n ing.com. I actually have on my website, a one pager on how to keep your cool in a hard conversation. So some of those things we were talking about earlier about how to manage your emotional response, I have a little infographic available on that. So if anybody's interested, they can head over to the website and download that.
Bethaney Wilkinson 51:39
Oh, perfect. Well, I love talking to you. So maybe we'll do a part two sometime in the future. But I really appreciate your time and your wisdom and, and honestly, just your deep love for people, it is so evident in the work that you do that you care, you see people and you care deeply about them. And, and I just appreciate being able to just stand in your light a little bit.
Katharine Manning 51:59
Likewise, Bethaney, I just feel so privileged that I've gotten to know you over the last month or two and really grateful for you and the work you're doing. Thank you. Thanks.
Bethaney Wilkinson 52:13
Isn't Katharine, just the best oh my goodness, I love learning from her. I'm imagining that in response to this conversation, there are maybe two, there are likely more, but at least two different reactions you might be having. For some of you, you might be thinking, Whoa, this is great. I need to put these things into practice right now, the skills, the laser method, this is for me. And then for others of you, you might be feeling oh my goodness, that is what I needed. When I shared this important thing with a boss with a supervisor with a friend, I needed them to show up for me in this way. And they didn't. And if that's you, if you're feeling that way, I just want to encourage you to find the support that you need to move through the process, whether that is professional support a loved one. I personally know how difficult it can be when you share something and it's not well received when people aren't able to listen, and they're not able to hold that space for you. And so this is just a gentle invitation to take care of yourself to define the support that you need. If you're realizing Whoa, I didn't get what I needed in that interaction. And now I have better context for it. And so wherever you fall on the spectrum, maybe both of those things are your experience. I hope that this time with Katharine is super helpful to you. And in general. Thanks again for being here on the show. Please rate and review the show wherever you're listening. That will help other podcast listeners find this episode, and I will catch you here next week.