Racism is the Problem - What Equity and Justice Require of Us w/ Tamice Spencer
Insight: Your team’s lack of “racial diversity” is not the root of the problem. Racism and white supremacy are the root problems.
Action: Adjust your perspectives and strategies accordingly.
My conversation partner for this episode is Tamice Spencer. Tamice graduated from Virginia Commonwealth University with a double major Bachelor’s degree in Religious Studies and Advertising. At age 20 she felt the call to vocational ministry quite strongly and hasn’t looked back. She has worked with hundreds of young adults and has a passion for learning, speaking, songwriting, and teaching.
Tamice is the Founder of Sub:Culture Incorporated a non profit that seeks to eradicate barriers for black college students. Sub: Culture Incorporated was created with students on the margins in mind and a longing to see them centered, and holistically cared for while on campus. Tamice is also co-founder of the Kingdom Collaborative, an Atlanta based collective of HBCU ministry practitioners. For six years she served on full-time staff with Intervarsity Christian Fellowship and the last two years on staff as the As
Transcript
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
whiteness, people, book, diversity, organizations, feel, ethnic identity, stories, called, hbcu, moments, students, ways, question, racism, systemic change, equity, life, crises, thinking
SPEAKERS
Bethaney Wilkinson, Tamice Namae Spencer
Bethaney Wilkinson 00:00
Hey, did you know you can officially preorder my book. It's called the diversity gap where good intentions meet true cultural change. If you are struggling to pair your good intentions for organizational diversity with thoughtful, human centered and story driven practices, then this book is for you, and the book I share eight key insights and actions you can engage to create a diverse and liberating organizational culture. I also share some personal stories in the research I've done over the past three years about why diversity gaps exist and how everyday people can close them. It is good stuff and I am so excited to share it with all of you. Visit www dot the diversity gap. com to pre order your copy today. Welcome to the diversity gap podcast. This is the book edition. My name is Bethany Wilkinson and I am your host hello good people. Welcome to the book edition of the diversity gap podcast. My name is Bethany Wilkinson. I am a writer, a researcher, a homesteader and all around creative who has spent the past three years really trying to understand the gap between our good intentions for diversity and the impact of those intentions. Over the past three years, I've had the privilege of interviewing over 100 thought leaders, entrepreneurs, creatives and everyday people about their racial experiences in the workplace. And I've learned a ton I've learned so much about systemic racism, about organizational culture, about the power dynamics that stifle our efforts for diversity and inclusion, and more. It's been an incredible ride. And honestly, it's just been a huge honor to create this body of work at a time in society where we need thoughtful engagement on how to navigate race related issues in our time. All of my research has culminated into my forthcoming book called The diversity gap, where good intentions meet true cultural change. In preparation to share this book with the world. I wanted to release a special edition of the podcast where I can give you a sneak peek into the book content and share incredible conversations I've been able to have on these topics. Now for chapter one, which is where we're starting. Here's the big idea. It's pretty simple. The idea is that your team's lack of diversity is not the root problem. your team's lack of quote unquote, racial diversity is not the root problem. racism and white supremacy are the root problems. I start my book here because I find that many organizations want to increase diversity without interrogating the systems and cultural factors that lead to the lack of diversity in the first place. And so we start here talking about what systemic racism is, how whiteness and white supremacy function as a culture, and about how we can begin reframing our diversity efforts to actually get to the root of the issue. My conversation partner on this topic was to me SNA may Spencer and y'all this one brings the brilliance Tommy's graduated from Virginia Commonwealth University with a double major bachelor's degree in religious studies and advertising. She felt the call to vocational ministry at the age of 20. And she hasn't looked back over the past year she has worked with hundreds of young adults and has a passion for learning speaking songwriting and teaching. tummies is the founder of subculture Incorporated, a nonprofit that seeks to eradicate barriers for black college students and subculture was created with students on the margins in mind and with a longing to see these students centered and holistically cared for while on campus, to me says also co founder of the kingdom collaborative and Atlanta based collective of HBCU ministry practitioners. For six years she served on full time staff with intervarsity Christian fellowship and the last two years on staff as the associate area director of HBCU planting and strategy for the South East region. I learned so much from this conversation was so inspired by to me says wisdom, brilliance, thoughtfulness, her compassion, and her creativity. Just so much goodness here. I cannot wait for you to learn from her as well. Enjoy this conversation. Alright everybody, welcome to another episode of the podcast. I am so excited to have with me today. Tommy's from subculture incorporated Tommy's How are you today? I'm doing great. How are you? I'm doing well. I'm doing really well. To kick us off, I want to start with the first question I asked everyone on my podcast and that is, when did you first become aware of your racial or ethnic identity? Yeah,
Tamice Namae Spencer 05:14
I'll have to say there's a couple of salient moments for me. But I think one of them, one of the main moments when I became aware of my ethnic identity was during picture day, in elementary school, I remember we used to have sort of these life touch studio, people would come in, and they would provide the class with combs. And all of the kids would kind of go to the water fountain and wet their hair, and kind of comb their hair for the picture. Well, my hair was different. And those combs didn't work in my hair and getting my hair wet was a No, no. And so I remember in those moments, feeling like there was something different about me, it was almost, it's like that James Baldwin idea of, you know, you're watching cowboys and Indians, and then you realize you're the Indian. And you don't know that you're different until you're kind of confronted with something like that. So that was the first time I think, I realized, Oh, I'm different than the people in school and my hair is different. And my skin is different. And so yeah, there was those types of moments all throughout, you know, grade school and things like that. And then of course, like, if a dance came out, or something like that, people would always ask me if I knew how to do it, and those types of things. So it was kind of like, you know, just random moments coming up through great grade school that I think were really the most theme here for me.
Bethaney Wilkinson 06:39
Wow, okay. I've never thought back to those combs ever in my life until this moment, but you are so bright. Oh, my goodness. Wow. Wow. Yeah. Little Black components, those little I know what you're talking about. I remember those days, too, that is so interesting. And so and just true. I just hadn't thought about it in a long time. So what role would you say your racial or ethnic identity? What role do they play in the work that you're doing today? If at all?
Tamice Namae Spencer 07:12
Right, I think I think it plays a major role. I think the difference, I'm not sure if I've ever been in work, in terms of because I've been in ministry for so long, I'm not sure that I've ever done any of the work that I do without some acknowledgement of my ethnic identity, I think the difference nowadays is the ways that I really resist exploiting my ethnic identity. I think those are the things that I'm probably the most conscious of that I wasn't before. And that's just, you know, I think before being black, you kind of like were invited to speak on certain things, but not other things. So you could talk maybe about like, cultural issues, or about, like, how to do really cool, like, dance dances are like know about certain songs, but like, when it came to sort of organizational or strategic things, you know, you weren't invited to that table. And so I think, I got used to that and got used to sort of exploiting my ethnic identity. And I don't do that anymore. I fully embrace it. And I it's more integrated. So it's not like, you know, I know, I hate to say it, but you know, being a black woman was more like a party trick, you know, and I, I brought it out when I needed to bring it out. But now I just feel like I'm a little bit more integrated, and, and, you know, kind of settled in who I am and really proud of who I am.
Bethaney Wilkinson 08:42
How would you say? So I imagine that that experience is resonating with people who are listening, not only black folks, but other people of marginalized identities, who do have that sense of like, Oh, I can put this thing on to meet a specific need in my organization. But it does feel more exploitative. Like, how can you unpack for us a little bit of what that journey has been? Like? I'm sure it's been like really complex and nuanced to move from it being something you put on to it being more integrated. But can you speak to that some for people who are listening? And they're on that journey as well?
Tamice Namae Spencer 09:17
Yeah, sure. So it will be something similar to like, obviously, you know, some of the police brutality stuff that came out, you know, be like, well, maybe somebody that's a little closer to the issue should speak about this. Or maybe somebody that's a little bit more closer to the issue should lead the prayer out. Or, to me, it's what do you think about these things that are happening in these other cities, and it would be almost like, you know, you're sort of representing the community in a way. And in doing so, you're sort of fielding all kinds of bias and prejudice and well, meaning people who are just not informed about a lot of things and so you find that like, These things where you thought you were kind of colleagues. In the back of people's minds, there was this thing or this sort of exotic thing about you, that could be used for the purposes of this organization. And so to me, it felt like, you know, always being called to lead the prayer or the moment of silence when someone was killed, or, you know, during Black History Month, you know, those are the times when I could lead and, you know, give a talk, those types of things, I feel like, I'm really kind of make you feel like a side show, in a lot of ways in our and I think a lot of that was just, you know, you, you feel you're gifted and you feel like you bring something to the table. And so you, you know, you revel in the opportunity to be able to use your gifts, but over time, that can really be something that kind of takes a toll on you. So hopefully, that that's an example.
Bethaney Wilkinson 10:59
Yeah, yeah. Hopefully, that helps some people, like, just start to identify and say, Oh, this is to be aware of that pattern. And then they can make their own choices about how they want to show up in spaces and maybe set some boundaries, or maybe, like, maybe you do want to speak in the moment, because that's like an expression of healing for you. But maybe you don't, and that there's to choose those things. Yeah, I
Tamice Namae Spencer 11:23
was just gonna say, I think the main difference is like, I would never, you know, tell someone that they shouldn't speak up. In those moments, I think what had to be first and foremost, for me was obviously, for lack of a better term being prophetic in those moments. So as long as in those moments, I felt like I had integrity. And that I spoke to or spoke about or spoke into something with honesty, related to how it was making me feel, or how I think it might make people who I know are, like me feel that kind of, I guess it could kind of level the playing field a little bit. I think, oftentimes, when you're a person of color in these organizations, you can feel the pressure to sort of like, you know, you can climb this ladder, but that, you know, comes with a certain level of kind of being temperate and tempered about what you say. And so for me, that was the way I sort of navigated that. Mm hmm.
Bethaney Wilkinson 12:25
Yeah, golly, that's super helpful. It makes me think I think it was last summer. I was at my church and I, I don't always feel that I was feeling the pressure, like, Oh, I need to say, so they need to speak up. I was feeling that pressure. But I've also learned how to interpret what that pressure is, and as the internal as the external and to kind of make sense of that. But at that point, my pastored did invite me to preach. And I knew in my gut that it was something I should do. I was like, Oh, yes, that is that is now is the moment I have something to say this is important. And it felt very different than the Oh, Bethany, can you come fill this gap? Because we don't have a black leader to come speak. And I felt the difference like in my body and my energy, it felt so purposeful, and timely. And so I think, yeah, there is a thing that we can do as leaders of color and these institutions to strengthen that discernment muscles so that we know when we're showing up in integrity, versus when we're showing up in like a performative obligation almost. Absolutely. So I'm thinking about an entry. I don't know if it would be a blog or and I think it was an excerpt from something that was published in a book that you wrote, it's on your website, and I'll be sure to link it here. It's called a grief unobserved. I'm saying that for the listeners, because of course, you know what it is because he wrote it. Yeah, I was reading that in preparation for our conversation today. And, and it was very moving, very moving. Especially given how you wove together, just so many stories of black people whose lives have been taken a lot of them by state violence, a lot of them by, by police violence and brutality, specifically, and what was powerful, and I guess, maybe painful is the word I want to use about reading them, let's just, I don't know, just being overwhelmed by the magnitude of the stories. And as I walked away from the piece, I was like, Okay, I need to get the book so I can read the whole thing. Um, that was one thought I had. Um, but then the other thought I had was like, how does to me, carry these stories, say these names, hold them in memory, and then keep moving forward, especially given how painful and traumatic so many of these stories are and have been and continue to be in many communities. What are your thoughts on that?
Tamice Namae Spencer 14:58
Well, I think that's a really good question. I think I remember them I have, you know, especially Trayvon Martin and I have a picture of him on my desk. And he represents, he just represents a very significant shift in my thinking and in the ways that I was approaching, doing life as a believer, and so I feel like Trayvon is really special to me. But then, in the stories I was trying to articulate just the like you said, that's a great word magnitude, I mean, it was almost, it was unrelenting, therefore, while from about, you know, 2012, to about 2016, you could not, you know, turn on the news without, without a story like that. And I remember what it did to me to my faith. And I've come actually, in an odd way, I'm kind of grateful for that time frame in life, even though when I was going through it, it was really, there was a lot of lament on depression even. And so now, when I think about the work that I do it, it feels to me a lot more meaningful, because these could have been, where could these boys or women be right now, if if it hadn't been that they were gunned down, sometimes, you know, choked, or however it is that they were taken, or killed, it's kind of like you, you think about, wow, you know, Mike Brown could have was going to go to college the next year. And that's, that's the demographic that I work with. And so I think it's constantly before me, as I'm interfacing with, with black college students that, you know, I'm like, this could be any of them. And so it really informs the quality of conversation I have with the students, it informs the ways that I seek to kind of affirm them and their identity. Um, you know, I wonder a lot, oftentimes, like, what was the last thing some of these boys or girls heard, and so thinking about that, as I work with them, thinking about how to advocate for them outside of my own, you know, interpersonal interaction with them. So I carry them and I kind of feel in an odd way, like it's a cloud of witnesses, you know, like, this is a, sort of, like, sort of a, like a, for lack of a better term a, like a pantheon of stories that have broken me and like, Can I produce can I create? Can I minister out of that brokenness, in order to advocate for them, and for those who who could have been them, they just weren't there at the time. And I think that that's how I carry them. In my heart, I'm trying to, you know, do my writing. Related to that, I think the book was really awesome, because it gave me the opportunity to sort of tell my story. And it was helpful to know that, you know, it resonated with a lot of people. And when I talked to the publishers about that, they were like, you know, they put that essay at the very end of the book, because it was a great way to end. The book was called keeping the faith and it was by Jonathan Walton, Susie LaHood, and Sai Hoekstra. And it was an honor for them to put me in the back of the book, and I got a lot of people reached out to me about that and still do. And so I feel like I kind of owe it to them to think to be circumspect, about what I say, how I live, how I affirm and speak life into black young people as I come into contact with them. And so I think those are some of the ways that I'm sort of carrying them with me and remembering them. But Trayvon for sure, I have a picture of him on my desk.
Bethaney Wilkinson 19:02
Yeah, wow. Okay, I was just like, really caught up in your story. So I'm like, trying to step back. And remember what I want. Um, so in your work now, with subculture Incorporated, you're working with black students? Can you tell us more about that? And I feel like you just kind of spoke to why you perhaps founded subculture. But yeah, tell us more about this organization.
Tamice Namae Spencer 19:26
Sure. I, you know, I have over 1516 years of ministry, working with young adults, and when I started working with HBCU students in Atlanta, I just felt a lot of dissonance. Um, I wasn't able to sort of put my money where my mouth is. So I mean, there's this quote, I'm trying to remember, excuse me, by Desmond Tutu, and he says, you know, when Jesus comes across a hungry person, and they asked him for food, he doesn't say, is that spiritual or is that social? He says, feed you because good news to a hungry person is bread. And I remember thinking about that, that I was able to raise a scholarships to take these students on kayaks in the middle of the woods. And we could take them to all these, you know, amazing places and retreat places. But they were more concerned about how they were going to get their oil change. So they could go to work so that they could pay for the next semester, you know, and I was not able to have any sort of input in that arena of their life. And to me, as a person who wants you know, being a believer and wanting students to know, Jesus, it was like, this is an actual barrier to that, um, why would I take him up in the mountains, so they can encounter Jesus when they can't even encounter Jesus in getting an oil change right here on campus, when they're the first person in their family to go to college, you know, and so when I left Atlanta and started subculture, it was really important for me to advocate for black college students in particular, I had done work at Emory, and just the students there, they had issues with they weren't. You know, the, the quote, unquote, crises that my black students face, we're not crises for people that I was working with at Emory. Um, you know, an oil change was deciding kind of the trajectory of a person's life on an HBCU campus. And so that, to me, was really bothersome. So subculture, what we try to do is sort of advocate for black college students. And we do it in three ways. We have a student subculture students sort of online forum where we curate blogs and articles about God about life. And it's a it's a site that's run by students, that is for students. And then we do some consulting work. So we work with organizations that want to reach black college students, we help them think about, you know, racial identity development and how to integrate that into discipleship, we think we help them think about, like, institutional things that would be affecting the ministry that they wouldn't maybe necessarily be privy to help them think about how do you have a multi ethnic group on this campus? And what happens when something racial happens in the news or on the campus? And how do you sort of feel that, so we kind of do consulting work there. And the main thing, those first two things, we, where we create the content and, and where we do the consulting, work those things funnel financial resources into our third thing, which is the crisis Relief Fund, which is the the reason we exist. And that is a fund that seeks to step in, when a student faces a crisis, like an oil change, or has a death in the family and can't afford to fly home or, you know, financial aid. So often people it will be like, my mom got a raise. And so financial aid is saying that, because my mom makes more, they won't give me more, but mom's not really seeing that money. And so, you know, they're, they're short $3,000, or something like that. And so we kind of step into those crises, because we feel like, if we remove the sort of socio economic, financial barriers, these cultural barriers that the spiritual barriers will come, will come away as well. And so just, it's a different way to kind of do what I was doing. I think there's some great organizations doing great work out here on campus. And so our, you know, we don't want to necessarily reinvent the wheel, we just want to reinforce it with resources. And so that's what we've been trying to do. We've been going since 2018. So,
Bethaney Wilkinson 23:40
yeah, wow. Okay, people who are listening, send all your money to to me incorporate, I wish it was coming to me, it's not coming to me and going to financial aid offices, oh, my goodness, but still, that's such an incredible and powerful purpose. And I really hope that listeners who have the means can get behind what you're doing and, and show up with those dollars, because it's just, it's just incredibly important. And it's a tangible way that some of these companies and organizations can give to the cause of racial equity and justice,
Tamice Namae Spencer 24:16
which is what they want to be about, like essentially, their their, you know, in my estimation, I think is justice work. Because it in some ways, even though it's slow, it is removing, you know, it's closing the wealth gap. Because unfortunately, going to college is really important in terms of getting a career. And so we want these kids to get through college so that they can be you know, citizens who contribute to society, but that also are able to build wealth for their families, and kind of close that wealth gap. And so it's a it's a Justice Initiative, just as much as a spiritual, you know, spiritual enrichment initiative. So,
Bethaney Wilkinson 24:54
yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, it makes me think I'm so I find that with a A lot of organizations that I work with and just that I'm observing. And when I say organizations, I'm thinking like values driven nonprofits value driven for profit companies large and small. In the wake of like massive awareness around injustice, a lot of these organizations, the way they start to show up to this space is through, you know, Dei, diversity, equity and inclusion. Sometimes it's like a struggle to even get the E in there for many organizations is just diversity and inclusion, right. And I find that over time, this idea of increasing diversity gets way detached from doing anything to address racism, white supremacy, anti blackness systemic, like, there are two different worlds. And so I'm wondering, what are your thoughts on maybe on that divide between increasing diversity, and then practicing racial equity, justice, celebration, these things, but also what are some things you think that institutions can do to focus less on just getting a diverse group of bodies in the room? And to focus more on equity and justice? Wow.
Tamice Namae Spencer 26:11
That's a very intense question. I do think, um, you know, the first thing that popped in my head is diversity and inclusion don't cost anything, equity is very expensive. And so I think that that's part of the reason, it's so much easier to just add colorful people to a brochure, or to you know, change some language or to add pronouns on something, it's a lot different to actually fundamentally change the structure, the infrastructure, and even some of the organizational strategy. That is a lot harder to do, it's a lot more messy, it's a lot more costly. And I think that, um, what I love about these conversations about equity is because it seems like and rightly so, we've had a lot of conversations about racism, and race and whiteness. But when we don't connect those conversations are where we don't acknowledge that racism, and, and sort of, like greed, kind of go hand in hand, like you can't have and I hate to say this, but like, you know, in a capitalistic type of way of thinking, really can feed into the exploitation of people. And I'm not, I'm not, you know, I'm not advocating for any other types of systems. I'm just saying, like, when we don't think about the cost and the money, that's, sometimes it's easier to deal with racism as a sort of abstract thing than to actually put dollars and cents behind change. And that's usually where you see the most, I would say the most, I guess, backpedaling in some of these places that are saying that they're committed to this. Because you know, you have the bottom line, and you have stakeholders and you have, you know, it's hard to think about that. Even if I am trying to build my own business, it's difficult to think about how, if you don't please the right people, like you will lose money. And so you have to kind of go, well, what's more important here? Are the values important in Am I going to, am I going to live out these values and trust? Or am I going to sort of capitulate to this other way of doing things? Because I'm afraid so you could do a faith kind of based restructuring, or you could do a fear base and kind of just stay there. And I know, those are overly simplistic and generalized ways of thinking about it. But to me, I think equity is often left out because it's a lot more costly. And it takes a lot more time. And it can sometimes get in the way of sort of the bottom line. And and you know, obviously that's one person's opinion. But that's kind of what I've seen in my experience. We'll We will definitely like say something hard related to racism. But we we will backpedal if you know, we get a phone call after saying the hard thing that says we're going to pull our donation. You know, you often find people sort of backpedaling very quickly. Um, and that's, that's a hard thing. That's a hard thing. And I've seen it happen a lot. But if you're if you're asking like why I think that for me, that seems to be the thing that that happens the most is that we're willing to include, and we're willing to even say racism is bad and wicked. It's a lot harder to spend money and throw money and rearrange money. That usually is kind of the hardest thing for people to do. So I think if they are wanting to maybe start to build more into the equity aspect of this, it would have to do with like taking a long hard look at some of the foundational real realities of the order, how does the foundation? Or what is the foundation of this organization? And how does it run? Fundamentally, I think those are the questions that we could be asking in order to really get at this equity. Part of it.
Bethaney Wilkinson 30:16
Yeah. Yeah, so I'm wondering, something that we have I haven't asked you about explicitly, but I'm wondering about is, when you think about a system, or I don't know what you would call it white supremacy as a thing, a fixture? And you can define it, or tell us how you would define that even? What is the impact of white supremacy on organizational life?
Tamice Namae Spencer 30:42
Oh, yeah, it's a big question. Yes, I think, um, and I like to say whiteness, because I think, um, white supremacy, you're kind of automatically picturing someone in a hood with a burning cross a lot of times, but I think whiteness, um, it kind of encapsulates a little bit more some of the things that we see show up in, in organizations, because no one would say that their organization was a white supremacist organization. But there are plenty of people of color who are leaving organizations, because whiteness is rapid in that, and what I mean by whiteness is this sort of like, setting a standard of measurement, setting a standard of success, setting a standard of even time orientation, setting a standard for ways that we read Scripture, ways that we expose it scripture, ways that we, you know, deal with, you know, other businesses, there are all of these sorts of things that are based in a, what would you say it's a, it's like, it's like a phantom objectivity, right? So it's not real, like there's no such thing as an objective, anything but whiteness, because it has been in power. And because it has infiltrated so many systems in our society, the assumption is that there was an objective way of doing things with these, this is just business. Or this is just, this is just the gospel, those types of things. And then we forget that, like, actually, whiteness is permeating this, and unless it is intentionally, like acknowledged, that's what's fueling everything that we do here, because that's just kind of what fuel the building of our country, right. And so, I think whiteness shows up in the ways that even we, we think about how people are paid. I know, in some nonprofit organizations, staff are required to kind of raise money. And so, you know, God is good, and he, you know, will provide for you, and you have all of these testimonies about the goodness of God and, you know, because someone was able to raise their support, but what does that say to a person who's just under resourced, and under networked, it's got not good. And so kind of the sort of placing people in a position to where they're confronted with, like, even if they can't put their finger on it, there's something that is off here. And there's something there's something that you're sort of racing against, and being called to kind of conform to and contort to. And I think that thing is whiteness. And I guess the only way to really recognize whiteness is to begin to learn from indigenous people of color, about their ways and their values and the ways that those systems kind of run and I I'm trying to run it's really hard. I mean, I'm trying to run subculture in a way that these sensors whiteness, and so it really looks like my staff team seems like they need the whole quarter off for mental health, you know, like, and that's gonna get in the way of podcasting and programming and that's gonna push all of these no curriculum creation behind but it's kind of like, do I value harmony more than I then I value No, this this quarters numbers and and those types of things and really trying to learn from indigenous folk how to lead from a place that values harmony above everything else. And that's been hard and so we're, we're, you know, chugging along, but it certainly isn't efficient. equity is not always efficient. And and that's the that's the real issue, I think.
Bethaney Wilkinson 34:36
Yeah, um, I just, I that's such a tangible action item. So like for people who are listening, it's like, if you feel like oh, whiteness is my organization doing that. The one of the best and simplest things you can do is to go learn from another cultural worldview in perspective, just just even just to start opening your eyes to how different people do things. With different values and priorities that are just as worthy, just as good. Yeah, I think that's such a great action step. Mm hmm. Absolutely. Okay, so this is my last question. Before we get to the lightning round. I'm wondering, do you think systemic change is possible? Yes or no? Why or why not? I hope so.
Tamice Namae Spencer 35:27
Um, do I think systemic change is possible? Yes, I do. And that can be influenced by the fact that I am a part of a, you know, a religious group that that is found in a lot of hope, for the future and for people and for the world. I do think systemic change is possible, I think. What is harder to believe it's possible is our willingness to lay down what we'd have to lay down in order to get there. And so I think, in a way, it kind of feels like the ball is in our court. And it's kind of figuring out like, what are we willing to lose that we might gain a more just and peaceful society? And I think that that the answer to that question is going to be different for every single person. But I don't think systemic change can happen without everyone asking themselves that question.
Bethaney Wilkinson 36:43
Okay, lightning round. Okay. Question number one, what's your favorite story of all time? Okay, you mean like a book or a movie, or you can decide, you can say Fast and Furious or whatever, that's cool. I'm just projecting it's one of my favorite stories. Go ahead.
Tamice Namae Spencer 37:02
Um, I've read it. So it's a it's kind of cheating because it's a it's a book filled with different stories. And it was a book called interpreter of maladies by Jhumpa Lahiri. I read it in college. Um, I've never forgotten that book. It's just, it's just so rich and colorful and engaging. And it just tells the stories of different types of people. But it's all written from this perspective of South Asian, it's written from a South Asian perspective, and I really, I haven't been able to forget that book. And I graduated, you know, 1516 years ago from college. And so I would say that's the best story I've heard of all time. Yeah.
Bethaney Wilkinson 37:48
Wow. Okay. What's the last book you read and loved? So this recently,
Tamice Namae Spencer 37:54
yes, um, I just read this book by Dr. Nicola para called How to do the work. Oh my gosh. Like it's shimmy required reading for just everyone on Earth. It was such a good book. And it deals with time thinking about healing and relationships and boundaries, and mental and emotional health. But it uses polyvagal theory. And it uses not only does it deal with kind of emotional things, and trauma, but it also like explains the way our bodies were made, and how our bodies were meant to function and to like, to fight for us. And that a lot of times, the things that we do that we would call brokenness are really just kind of our inner child like trying to protect us from things we experienced. And so it's just like a really, really fascinating book. Um, but that it really, you know, it gets out some stuff, but it's in a very mild way and the work, the proverbial work, it feels doable. I loved, loved loved that book. I've been telling everybody, I bought it for everybody on my team. So yeah, it was a great book.
Bethaney Wilkinson 39:13
If you could have dinner with one person living or dead, who would you choose? Oh, James Baldwin, for sure. Oh, gold. Yeah. In one song that would be on the soundtrack to your life,
Tamice Namae Spencer 39:27
huh? Are you thinking about this? I really don't know. So I will just have to say the song that like, I heard a song The other day, went up the other day A while ago that I was like texting everyone. I was like, if I die, you have to play this song and McKerrow like so texting so many people that like somebody is going to tell whoever buries me that this song and it's called the story I'll tell by Maverick city music. Oh my gosh, I love that song. Um, and it just The there are parts of that song that are really deep and meaningful to me because it's, you know, it really speaks to moments in my life. How you were my portion when there wasn't enough and like, you know, all that's left is highest praise, like they're just seeing, you can tell that Nope. Naomi rain has been through, and it's coming through in the song and I feel really, I feel like that song really defines just kind of my own journey, my own spiritual journey over the years. So I would say that one.
Bethaney Wilkinson 40:35
Yeah, for sure. Yes. Oh, I love that song, too. Okay, last question. How can everyday people close the gap between their good intentions for diversity and true cultural change? Hmm.
Tamice Namae Spencer 40:52
I think, like I said before, I think the only way to close that gap is to kind of close the gap between ideological understandings of racism, and like financial, and like, yeah, financial ways of thinking about racism, if those things are so far apart, and they're on different planets, I think it's only ever going to be a pipe dream, I think we have to bring those two things into conversation with one another. Because there's nothing more practical than, like, where you give your money and how you spend it. Right. Like, I think, money and time, those are the two most important resources I think that we have. And so taking the time to see how those things are affect one another and almost fuel one another. And then and then putting your money, where you feel like where God might have you put it in response to whatever it is that you learn. I think those are the ways. Those are the only ways to me to close the gap, because we've been trying to close it since you know, you know, the civil rights movement. So that's what I was saying. I don't know if that's helpful or not. But that was my answer.
Bethaney Wilkinson 42:10
definitely helpful. To me. Thank you so much for your time, where can people find you keep up with you give your organization money, why working with you.
Tamice Namae Spencer 42:20
So if you want to get into the writing and everything that's going to be to meet them at a M i c e Ma Ma e.org. If you're looking to sew into the lives of black college students, that's going to be subculture Inc. And that's Inc.org.
Bethaney Wilkinson 42:40
Great, great. Yeah, well link those things in the show notes. Thanks again. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode of the diversity gap podcast. There are so many things that to me share that I'm still sitting with. But the one idea that is top of mind is this notion that diversity and inclusion don't cost anything, but equity is very expensive. Equity really causes us to question what's going on with our finances and what's happening with the bottom line of the companies and organizations we lead and that we're a part of. And so I encourage you to spend some time reflecting on this question, what would it look like for you to leverage whatever influence you have to make sure that your budget is aligned with your vision for racial equity? Until next time, friends, thanks again for listening. You can pre order a book at WWW dot the diversity gap calm, and until next time, may your good intentions for diversity lead to true cultural change. Bye