Part Two: The “R” Word - Racism and Organizational Culture w/ Danny + Courtnee Wilson

Episode Summary: In this episode of The Diversity Gap Podcast, Bethaney kicks off season two with a two-part conversation on racism. Have you ever wondered how the complexities of racism intersect with our organizational diversity work? In part two of this two-part series, Bethaney sits down with Danny + Courtnee Wilson. The Wilsons are racial justice leaders who are passionate about creating community, empowering others, and raising confident, self-aware Black children in today’s culture. Bethaney and the Wilsons discuss some of the nuances of leading well as Black people in majority white organizations. They also discuss the phenomenon of internalized racial inferiority. 

Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

racism, people, black, white, parenting, feel, friends, organizations, diversity, question, whiteness, hard, push, space, color, dynamic, children, hear, work, realizing

SPEAKERS

Bethaney Wilkinson, Listener Story, Courtnee Wilson, Danny Wilson

Bethaney Wilkinson  00:00

What were you taught to believe about racism growing up?

Listener Story  00:03

I think for me to answer your question, what I learned about racism as a kid was racism was anything that was really, really bad. So it was like the, you know, if somebody was going to murder somebody because of their race, then that person is a racist. So it was like, incredibly hate driven. Anything below that, as a kid I was taught was not racism that was, like, it just was, how it is or whatever. So I think as a, as an adult, as learned that that is different. But as a kid in my mind, racist, were, you know, those who were like, part of the KKK, or were very like, vocally hateful. I would say that what I, I don't know so much that I learned certain things about lately, I just, I don't know that I was taught certain things about race. But I didn't learn certain things about race. What I learned most of all, I think, growing up in New York City was that diversity was beautiful. And I really enjoyed and appreciated it, all of my friends were from various different backgrounds and countries, it was truly the melting pot that we all know New York to be, I had friends that was Greek and Italian, into slavery and Puerto Rican. It was just great. And that was my normal as a child. My mother spoke Spanish, it was just very, very normal. But when we moved to the south, things changed. And immediately, I realized that if you weren't black, you were white. And that really bothered me. I remember asking my mom, where's everyone else? You know, so I knew off the bat that, wow, diversity isn't a thing here. I am a white 29 year old female. And the question, what did I learn about racism as a child, I didn't. My parents were very Christian, and very, under the concept taught me the concept of color blindness, and that we're all children of God, and that that just wasn't color to be seen. And then I went to a private Christian school that was basically entirely white. So I feel like no one really address race in general, and then definitely didn't teach me about racism. And if racism was brought up in school, or anything like that, it was definitely spoken about as something from the past. And how sad that America used to be that way. And things like that. So anyway.

Bethaney Wilkinson  03:08

Welcome to The Diversity Gap podcast, where we are exploring the gap between good intentions and good impact as it relates to diversity, equity and inclusion. My name is Bethaney Wilkinson and I am your host. Okay, so I didn't want this to be a one sided conversation where we just talk about internalized racial superiority. I think it's really important for me on my learning journey, and for all of us to lean into how racial inferiority might be showing up for us in our lives, relationships and in our leadership context. And so I decided to sit down with my good friends, Danny and Courtnee Wilson. They are a black couple, who, who are all who do all sorts of things leading in our community, mentoring other young people, young couples, they have three beautiful children. And they have been kind of spearheading a lot of racial justice and racial advocacy work in our church, and so I thought it'd be helpful to talk with them about some of their experiences of navigating racial inferiority or the perception of that, that that way of racism, but also how they see racism playing out in organizations as a whole and some of the things that they're trying to do to resist it. So here's a conversation with Danny and Courtnee. Hi, Wilsons. I'm glad you're here 

Courtnee Wilson  04:39

We're glad to be here.

Bethaney Wilkinson  04:41

Tell the people who you are. 

Danny Wilson  04:42

I am Danny Wilson. I am 40 years old. I am a military brat. And so I've had a lot of different cities and backgrounds. I'm currently in ministry work, and I live in Atlanta, Georgia.

Bethaney Wilkinson  04:59

Cool. 

Courtnee Wilson  05:00

My name is Courtney Wilson. I'm Danny Wilson's wife. I guess I can share my age since we're sharing ages 34. We have three children together. Two boys a girl eight, six and four. Yeah, I'm an infant school teacher currently, which I love. And we're doing ministry work together. He's technically on staff at church. But I mean, you know, the wife is always she's doing some background work of some sort. Yes, yeah.

Bethaney Wilkinson  05:34

Yeah. I feel like that kind of under sells it do. Yeah. I just think about like, I mean, all of the mentorship y'all do like having people in your home. Yeah. Community Work relationship building. You do a lot. You have like, a resume of this. Let's do some Yeah, 

Danny Wilson  05:50

She's my number one volunteer.

Bethaney Wilkinson  05:53

Yeah, well, I'm happy. Thanks for sitting down with me. So this is a part of an episode on racism specifically. And I just, I don't know, I feel like it's one of those things, people want to talk about diversity, but they don't want to talk about racism. And I feel like you can't really move towards multicultural multi F, you can't really move towards any sort of cross cultural community if you aren't willing to, like name the reality of racism in this space. So I'm wondering, and y'all can speak to this from whatever vantage point you want to but when you think about racism, and how it shows up in organizations, what comes to mind for each of you.

Danny Wilson  06:28

when I first read that question, how it shows up in organizations, the first thing that came to mind was, you know, the psychological burden of a legacy of, of racism. So I feel that sometimes I put it on myself, and I know it happens for the white leaders at times. But I feel sometimes under you know, under estimate myself, I feel underestimated. I feel like a less a little lower quality person. So yeah, just that was the first thing that really comes to mind that felt sense of being second class, there's a little less trust in the quality of a product, you know, little less confidence and given a microphone, or a leadership role and opportunity. So sometimes I feel like that is the most prevalent way it shows up. In you know, most organizations.

Bethaney Wilkinson  07:29

Yeah, you saying that makes me think of I had a friend who asked me once I was just trying to explain to them like, oh, it was really hard week to be a black girl, in my job, or whatever it was. And this was a while ago now. And their question is as a white person, their question to me was like, Well, what happened? And it was so hard to describe, it's like, well, nobody called me a racial slur. Like no one was mean to me, but I can, but you can feel it like that lack of that lack of trust or confidence, or it's like these, it's really hard to describe,

Courtnee Wilson  08:00

Super hard. I'd say for me the same. I was like, oh, subtle. That is like the word that first came to mind. And then I was like, Okay, well, when you think subtle, like, what are the subtle things, you know, and for me, it's where we are investing our time, our money, how they listen to what the people of color are saying, and their responses to those things. And I think it shows a lot when I think of the way it shows up, it shows up and defensiveness constantly trying to prove their intention. And, you know, pushing back when the people of color have suggestions, or hey, this is the way I can be, you know, be seen. This is the way I want to be poured into, and racism shows up as well. I hear you, but I think this is better, you know, the idea of everything we do everything we think is right. And I think that is American society as a whole. And we see it pop up. And it's hard because they're so you know, they are blinded by it. So it makes it hard. It does come off as the subtle like, Okay, I responded in a way that you're not used to because you're not used to working in this context with people of color. So now you're offended, but you don't know how to talk about your offense. So now what you're doing now is taking power away or excluding people from meetings and, you know, not inviting people of color into important meetings that are shaping the organization. When you say you are trying to create diversity and inclusion, but you're still going about it your your own way, you know, still selecting white leaders, white male leaders, but still saying out of your mouth, I care, you know, and so still to me, it shows up as not willing to go off the normal pattern. Still going with what's comfortable.

Danny Wilson  10:01

You know, there's a subliminal trust issue going on, I kind of saw this, this play out is like the history causes a pain. If for white person doesn't account for that, and you know that that history and make any kind of adjustments or adaptations to, you know, repair the relationship, then I can say, you know, I can just go into it feeling excluded, you know, it may not actually be true, I think there's just the there's that because there hasn't been this deep work of repair done on a, on a large scale. It's, it's, it can lead easily leave people of color subject to feeling, you know, less than an equal,

Bethaney Wilkinson  10:53

Because of the history, whether it's like big picture US history, or even just history, within relationships in organizations, or on teams or whatever, when the work isn't done to repair those things. I'm not putting words in your mouth, but it's like, the way I see that play out is it's almost like because it's so uncomfortable to directly addressed the problem, it's like you double down on power you double down on, like, white leaders might do this, like they double down on doing things where they've always done it because they're too afraid to enter into the work that it would take to repair a situation and then all of it just leaves, black people people of color, feeling even more margin. Because the efforts being made to a repair the wrong and be redistribute power and see build trust. And you can't leave with an organization of the people who currently hold power don't give that trust to you. And, and not the trust to do it perfectly. The trust let you fail, right, same space, a human, it's like, you got this title, and you got to screw it up and try new things.

Courtnee Wilson  11:55

Absolutely.

Bethaney Wilkinson  11:56

So what the other people, our team experienced that freedom as well. I don't know, I just was, yeah, trying to go off what, you're saying what it made me think of

Danny Wilson  12:04

I agree. And then, you know, to fail without, like, oh, I might not be in this position anymore. Because there's so little conflict that happens. You know, I just wish sometimes white folks lean into conflict a bit more, because there's so little conflict when a little bit of conflict happens. It feels like man, you know, is this job at risk? You know, when actually, I think the route to healing is through conflict is through the hard discussions and the difficult conversations about what hurt I look at racism as a spirit, it's a it's a spirit, it's a, it's not what people do is this, this spirit that whispers in everyone's ears, you know, when nobody's looking, it's, it's the subtle, don't trust that. That happens. And, you know, when we don't, you know, apply faith towards healing in that, you know, that the face the faith without works is dead, you know, there's, there's no, there's no healing, we, you know, both sides are just going to have to engage. And as a society kind of felt like, you know, we've handled racism already. It feels like, like, that's, that's yesterday's news. You know, now, as long as we are good with formative action, and getting everyone accounted for, we're good. But now there's just still a lot of, you know, microaggressions, that, that need to be brought to the surface. And then space made for black folks to feel like they can actually share those things without threat or danger.

Courtnee Wilson  13:45

Yeah, the dynamic with racism is that it was built on trying to convince themselves that they are, you know, better than and another racist less than. And so I think with that, there's this overall fear of anything that threatens that dynamic has to be shut down. And so it's still showing up, and why folks who think that they've, you know, somehow overcome racism, and they've not done all of the work that it takes to undo those things that realizing there is something that has to be undone because of what this thing has been built on. And so if you're not aware of that, it still pops up and pushing back, like you said, using that power to shut down and not realizing that you're doing it in the moment. And so I think that really is just how it continues to pop up is this need to still control and not being aware of the dynamics because it is subtle, it's in all sorts of ways that that it shows up and we could be here all day of unpacking all of the areas in you know, it hits so yeah, and

Bethaney Wilkinson  14:53

I wonder too, I think we've talked about this before, it's like, part of the challenge with inviting White people to dismantle racism is that it works for them. Right? Exactly. on an organizational level, it's like doing things that you've always done. That's how you got your donors. Got your building. That's how like, yeah, so it is, so why would you change that team that you like? And so it is it's a, this is a meme still processing. But yeah, why? If it ain't broke for me, though I fix it. And that's something I think people have to wrestle with. Yeah. I love to hear your thoughts on so when I think about Indiana, you kind of opened up talking about this about like the internalized piece of racism, like how it kind of, especially if you're a black person, or a person of color in a majority white space, how you're, like, taught to question yourself and to doubt yourself. You can't it's really hard to a identify what your authentic leadership voice is, and then be the lead from that place. What does it look like for you to to navigate that push back against it, resist it? How do you wrestle with internalized peace of all this? That's a big question.

Courtnee Wilson  15:59

I think first, knowing that there is something that you need to be wrestling with, I think, my own personal journey. Looking back, there was a season where I didn't even know there was work to be undone. Until I started doing the work, almost unknowingly, and then realizing, Oh, I found my voice why all these years, I questioned so much of what was actually happening, but then I look back and go, Okay, this is how I was raised, I was raised to look at anything that was White was right. You know what I mean? Even if at the same time I'm being taught to not trust them? If you know, they'll never be your friend like you think they are? You know? Yeah, I mean, like warnings like this is these are my black parents shaping me, you know, for a white world. And so it's look like lots of conversations with friends. Reading, processing, and really just sitting with God and going through really being open to seeing I think at some point it was I did not want to see what was actually happening. I didn't because it was, you know, sometimes these are people that you love. And it is it's almost shocking to think that in the time that we're living, that it's actually existing in these ways. But then you start realizing, oh, in these spaces, I'm finding myself not being, you know, changing the way that I talk or, you know, not being honest, when the white my white friend actually asked me a question, because I wasn't sure if what I was saying was correct, because I don't want to offend. But also, you know, sometimes I struggle with finding language, and I don't have language. And so I think what helped is finding language. And like reading books like Austin chatting, really, I think through just conversations, navigating that and just being willing to see it, and not running away from it and choosing to be blinded. or indifferent. You know, there's a season where it was I was indifferent to it. And so I think just being willing to just sit with it, grapple with it. And the Lord does a lot of that work. If I'm honest, I think that in time it was he's like, Okay, it's time for the blinders to come off. And that was happening through circumstances.

Bethaney Wilkinson  18:26

It makes me think, too, and I know we do you do this for me a lot. It's like having friends. Yeah, who can hold you accountable? Like, I heard you use your real voice? Yeah. And I heard this moment when you did it. Yeah. So yeah, having like a friend be able to say, Oh, I you go be.  I noticed. Yeah, yeah,

Danny Wilson  18:44

Well, that's the hard part too. Because you might be on that journey with your closest leader, you know, and they might actually be asking those hard questions and going into it. But if you have a meeting with another organization, you almost got to do some code switching. And, you know, I and or do you, you know, and again, we're we're talking about a you're hearing from a person who's just live in a real life and realizing more areas where healing is needed. But in answering the question about how to navigate it, I'm trying to pay more attention to the stories I'm telling myself to the voices, I'm telling myself you know, the that internal voice in my head and in and it is telling me I can't do something. And and to go into that in a work of asking myself Okay, why do you feel you can do this? It's because it's been said over and over again, that you can't do it. Because trust hasn't been given to you to do it. And then allowing space for God to, to you know, show me the lies that I'm believing is true. And to give him Don't space to, to speak truth into me and what he actually says and, you know, with the hope that I can move forward in that strength and confidence for the rest of the day.

Courtnee Wilson  20:13

I do think the Holy Spirit has done a lot of work. I think for both of us personally, I'd say if I'm speaking from a personal with the addition of friend accountability, the Holy Spirit reveals that stuff in time, he's the one that does the work, he's the one that knows, you know, where you're hiding yourself, where you're not letting your voice shine, where you're not being honest, when he's calling you to be honest, and sitting with those convictions, day after day, week after week. And then creating opportunities, you know, for those conversations consistently, especially if you feel specifically called to this we're all called to do it. But I mean, specifically on the on the ground, you know, Boots running type of work. Holy Spirit is like is crucial. For me.

Danny Wilson  21:02

Yeah, that's, I mean, I feel like that's like where the main effect of racism, you know, still is the fact of the matter is that if I'm going and presenting a proposal or presentation to a, to a wide organization, it's like, big white organizations aren't saying yes to diverse presentations yet. You know, oh, you know, you can even look at it at restaurants, you know, who's going to these black restaurants, black folks, are we actually there still a financial protests happening or based on race where white folks aren't, aren't diversifying where they eat and where they shop and who they create partnerships with and, and deals with and, and grow businesses with like, there is still these platforms that have thick glass ceilings. And so because that is still in place, there is this weird juxtaposition. You know, in how you speak, or how you present it doesn't make you black, but my experience shapes me in a way, and I don't feel comfortable being my, my Free Self, and spaces of power because of this. This truth that that financial vote that it still is still being boycotted among people of color.

Bethaney Wilkinson  22:29

It makes me think I want to ask like, I know, because we're friends, how much like anger and yes, frustration, and we're quitting tomorrow. Yes. That's in the room to Yeah, maybe by an hourly, weekly, monthly basis. And so, I don't know, what do we do with all that? Like that part of it.

Courtnee Wilson  22:53

Honestly, I think accepting that it's a journey and accepting that there's things you don't know, constantly being like, at this moment, this is what I feel, and I'm okay with it. And then the next moment, I'm hopeful, and I feel encouraged, and I feel extra powerful and want to share my voice. And then the next moment, I feel hopeless, again, you know, and being okay with that dynamic and not always thinking that it's uphill all the time. But when you fight against that, it could be up, it could be down could keep going up, keep going down longer than you want it to. I think that's where fatigue, burnout, frustration just sits there. But you got to just, it's okay to sit in those frustrating moments and not resist that. I think that anything hard is I mean, marriage is hard. Raising children is one moment, it's great, then the next moment is hard as hell, you know. And so I think being okay with it being okay with the heart part, accepting it as part of the work, I think we've glorified the work by the, you know, the doctor, not fully understanding who he really was, Dr. King, the Rosa Parks, the names that they push, you know, to keep their agenda going, but look how they did it, you know, but you don't see the heart moments where his health was suffering, you know, and his marriage was on the rocks and people were like, You need to slow down and he didn't want to slow down you know, and being tired and fatigued and just hopeless. But the but pushing beyond that. I think you just got to be okay with it at some point. And while you're not making sure that you've created a circle of people that can hold your arms up when you can't I think that's super, super important.

Bethaney Wilkinson  24:40

So just making peace with the fact that it's not yes, and unicorn 

Courtnee Wilson  24:45

Yes, I think that's crucial.

Bethaney Wilkinson  24:48

And I think that's countercultural too because I think in some way like white culture but American culture is very like were the winners were that like, Yeah, I think one of my mentors way she puts it is like for a lot of white churches live in Resurrection whereas a lot of black churches live in the crucifixion. And if you are especially a majority white faith community like you have to spend way more time in the in the lament the crucifixion that conflict like Danny was talking Yes. Or your claim victory too soon,

Courtnee Wilson  25:19

way too soon and and actually speaks to how racism shows up in organizations is that piece of constantly wanting wanting to be celebrated and constantly wanting to focus on the resurrection and remembering what happened to set the resurrection in place. That's what we preach about that is what makes what he did on that cross. so effective is that it was a laying down of self, it was carrying a physical cross, it was actually looking at the people you came to save, throwing rocks at you and spitting at you like that is what made the resurrection. So great. And I think that is what makes the work not doing that work so dangerous is because you miss it. And then when you miss the hard parts you miss people's stories who come from hard parts and men it creates is we don't want to focus on that. I think that is why so many white people do that. Oh, you know, they want to minimize because it's not something they have to live into. If we want to really be honest, whiteness and racism has created a level of comfort that the rest of the world doesn't get to experience. And so because of that comfort, it constantly creates these, these blinders to miss the hard part. Because if you've kind of cruise throughout life, not to say that people don't work hard. But there's something about going through hard things that makes you open to seeing other people's hardships and bringing, and affirming those hardships. But if you don't know what hard things look like, it's like, are you making this up? Because this doesn't this? I've never seen anything like this before. You know. So being open to the hard things and not pushing against that. Which, which is what makes the work even harder.

Danny Wilson  27:13

Yeah, I don't know, if I do a great job of staying healthy with the answer the question, what do I think about how do we balance it all and stay in the work? I take time to realize that this is the work in our context, I go to the National Center for civil and human rights. And I see all the freedom fighters on the wall and, and with their mug shots or that have been arrested and almost glorify that work and not feel like I'm being as effective. Right now we're not the boycott doesn't look like that the boycott looks like staying in these organizations and being the first or the only voice at these tables that God has given us the privilege to influence this is our way I think of it as this is my way of moving the needle on this in my lifetime. And I just have to be mindful of the opportunity that's in front of me. Yeah, I actually want to protest with my feet sometimes do and just walk out the door. But I just see the value in the position that, you know, God, God has given me in, you know, in some spaces, it took a long time for a black person to get there. If I drop out on this work, we might go another three years. For someone who's at all of these tables in these meetings that can promote social change, you know, so just keep my keep my eye on the prize. And God is even show me that vision. Like you're going to work this is gonna be hard. And what if you only barely moved the needle? Would that be okay? And I had to say yes. Even Even if a lifetime. You know, it was right after a meeting. That was awesome. And I felt like I felt like me talking about race in this crowd of white folks. Man, it made me come alive. And it felt like man, I changed logic 30 Last night, God and God said what if you know, you work a whole lifetime toys, this and it only moves the needle here. This is a great aha moment. But most of it isn't going to feel like this. Is that okay? Can you still stay in it? And so I remember that. This is the cost of moving the needle. And if I don't do it, if we don't do it, we don't all take these opportunities, man, we're gonna, this is gonna take we want our kids to see the effect of this. We don't want to you know, just let America plateau at subtle moderate racism, you know? You gotta keep it going.

Bethaney Wilkinson  29:53

So that's actually a really great segue because I wanted to ask you about your kids. And not that you're like Parenting experts unless you want to be parenting, so I don't want to put that we're not doing our best. But you're raising these three beautiful, brilliant black children. Yeah. And America. And I don't know that I've had, I've asked any when I've interviewed about this, given the work that you do the awareness that you have, as you're even reflecting on your own stories, like what are some of the tensions, fears, hopes that you see in your parenting journey?

Danny Wilson  30:28

You know, I'm working hard to give my kids good education. But I'm like, man, they're not they're not talking like his Oh, it was like, I'm, I'm realizing how I'm taking them out of blank spaces. And it's really made challenging everything, what do I believe is black, it's now because my kids, they speak so well. And in my mind, that, you know, great presentation, even though it's English is still feels like whiteness to me. And so there, so I'm, I'm like, Man, this is actually what I wanted. I wanted them to be great. But how do i What is it? What does it mean to be black? And and? Yes, I wanted to give them in the greatest schools. But yeah, it's just it's a, it's an interesting space. I don't know if you want to speak into that. Yeah.

Courtnee Wilson  31:15

It is interesting, because I feel like it is something we cannot turn off. Because of the work that we do. They're often in white spaces. And so, which is great, and something that we've been able to be blessed to have actually some amazing white friends and relationships. But with that, you do see ways that they're influenced with value, the things that they value. My daughter is only four and has already, you know, different hair textures, different color skin tones, she's a brown baby, beautiful brown baby. And because most of her friends have long, straight hair and fair skin, that's what she that's what she wants to be, you know, and my heart breaks for that, because I went through the same thing. But I think because I've seen the opportunity for that to be undone in my own personal life, I'm able to not parent from fear in that area. Because I'm able to say, she has to go on her own journey, there are things about this country that I cannot shield her from, it is my work as a parent to sow the seeds of truth. And in due time, those things will flourish. And so with my black boys, you know, we hear another story in the news. And fear immediately arises like only a person of color could really understand the fear that comes with hearing the stories and knowing how much of a target we are. And so pushing up against that, and not excluding them from certain activities, or certain groups of people because of this fear that I have. But also understanding too, that there are a lot of things that our parents did out of fear, to shape us for a white world and making sure that and a lot of those things were not healthy things, you know, we even talked about, okay, what are some of the internalized racism, some of that also came from our being taught from our parents. And so how do I fully shake them to be fully themselves, being careful to not push a certain agenda, that it's not stemming from some internalized racism that I have. So there's a lot of just nuances that you have to carry in this space. But I think taking it one day, at a time not being afraid to push the envelope not being afraid to have those conversations. And we talk a lot, I talk to my kids all the time, if they go to someone's house, and they come back saying, you know, expressing what normal kids would say, Oh, they were mean they were this asking questions. Did they mention your skin tone? Do they at all say you know anything about you being black, or asking these without thinking, Oh, if I say this, then they're going to be looking for it while I want them to know, you know, because growing up, I if those things happen, I didn't know that it was okay to come and say anything. So I think just creating space, and for them want to be able to share anything but especially about rights, I want them to know like mommy and daddy signed up for this. And you know, you're in these spaces that you didn't choose to be in but also believing that the work that we're doing, they'll supersede that because of their the experiences that they're having, you know, that we're so you know, the awareness that we have is shaping them so much, that they're not going to be afraid to stand up for themselves. They're not going to be afraid to push back when someone you know is excluding someone you know, and getting in the spaces where the voices will be heard, you know, and when they're not being able to say, hey, my voice isn't being heard in this space.

Danny Wilson  34:56

And I mean having kids in majority white spaces like they are experiencing, you know, racism, like they're, I think there's a lot of avoidance in white culture to talking about race. And it's actually like, oh, wow, man even see when some racial things arise and to see how is brushed over or you know, not not really addressed and watching live, like the problem be passed on to the next generation by avoidance, you know, so it's even, you know, the stuff that, you know, some white families are learning, it's almost like a can of worms, nobody really wants to open it. So they just kind of avoided all at all cost. But, you know, the kids are intelligent beings like they, they know the difference between a black dog and a white dog do you think they don't notice, you know, our skin differences? And, and my kids, you know, have already come home saying, Daddy, I want to be white. I say why do you want to be white? And he said, cuz a dishwasher work and eight refrigerated work. I was like, Man, I'm working hard for the dishwasher. is good you. And I'm sitting here like, Man, I as hard as we work for this house man is still the house, the smallest house they go in, you know what I'm saying? And, and they see these other, you know, expressions of life. And they see the correlation. Yeah. I mean, they. So, you know, the stats don't lie. Like they are actually in tune to the let the what the legacy of racism has has, has left like browner people have less things than lighter people. Yeah, I was even telling Courtney man, if there's anything I want to write, I want to write children's books, you know, to get this conversation into more white households at a younger age. And, and, and I even also, I see my kids kind of desiring, again, kind of making this spectrum of quality that correlates with the whiteness spectrum. And then like even avoiding some blank spaces that I feel totally at home in it, how do you navigate that they're forming their own quality scale and spectrum. I'm trying to interject, but it's still theirs. And I feel that it sometimes even undignified, a large percentage of black folks realities. So you know, she's weird. We're living, we're learning?

Courtnee Wilson  37:46

Yeah, I think it's important to just constantly bring value and audit of black culture. I think making sure for us, they're around the, the little bit of family that we have here, and our really close friends who are our black friends, you know, and not discounting those moments, you know, of exposure, sending them to a school that's predominantly black, you know, I think those things are important, and just being okay, with both, I think, yeah, the dynamic of that spectrum of value and quality, and it being associated with whiteness and white people, and then also feeling sometimes judged by your children, because also they don't understand, you know, they're young, and their perspectives on the world and life are still being shaped. So, you know, having your feelings hurt, like, we're really trying, and you don't truly understand the dynamic of what, what this world is, and why the people that were around have been allotted the opportunities to do this. But at the same time, being gentle, and, you know, their lack of understanding and then holding that and saying, You know what, but I can still bring value to your ancestry in the group of people that you come from, that's important to do.

Bethaney Wilkinson  39:05

So get it's, I mean, it sounds like, I mean, all of parenting, I would imagine is this way, but you have a lot. You're just holding all of it and responding and doing the best you can, yeah, intentional where you can, listening really well. And not going to sleep to the ways that is really hard. Yeah.

Danny Wilson  39:23

Oh, man. And you know what? I was raised in the Black House, and I'm just realizing I have some unhealthy ways from what was passed on, you know, and how much the effects of racism and a legacy of slavery have ingrained these reflexes and responses to anger and control, you know, that legacy of slavery that being beaten to control and yelled at and dis loved into control,

Courtnee Wilson  39:56

but also coming out of survival, too. You know, you don't have time for the sweet talk, Hey, stop that. Yeah. Yeah, or it's life or death. And so seeing how that comes up, like I mentioned before fear, you know, but parents have lived in fear. And that shows up in your parenting. But it can also add to the voiceless pneus of your child.

Danny Wilson  40:25

Yeah, because, you know, fact of the matter is a group of black boys hanging together can't act in the way which, you know, a group of white boys can. So we are actually, in a sense, parenting at a different standard of conduct. Because, you know, it's not fair yet. It's not, it's not right yet. And it is not fair for them to have to, you know, learn composure at a at a quicker rate than their white counterparts. And so,

Courtnee Wilson  40:58

and that is heavy to hold, I will say, that's probably one of the heaviest things is seeing the freedom of white children, versus the lack of freedom for black children it is, I don't as probably something I always carry for the rest of my life is just what comes with being a black woman, and mother in this country is watching that that has been that's probably been one of the hardest things is that, man, you can't even fully live into this freedom because of the dynamic of this country and your safety.

Danny Wilson  41:30

And so they are actually getting a different experience. And A Different Me because of the little T and big T trauma from all of the because of my black American experience, and so it's just and then I mean, and so with the gift of, you know, we're just coming into our, our place of you know, even just, you know, not struggling. And so the gift of, you know, even years of not struggling from our white friends were parents, and they just, they're able to just have this gentleness and this calmness, and this, this just a stress lessness with their children. That that, you know, I aspire to I wish was a part of me and yeah, so it's just, it's hard. It's actually really hard. And I really feel like I'm failing at parenting a lot. So, yeah, it's, it manifests. I cry, Courtney, hold me. And we live to fight another day.

Bethaney Wilkinson  42:49

Thanks for sharing. Thanks for opening up all of that. So my, my last question, it's not totally a pivot. But maybe it is a little bit I want to hear. So this podcast on another project that I'm working on. I'm exploring diversity gaps in organizations, the gaps between intentions and impact. And so I'm wondering from your perspectives, what are what I would say, what is pick one? What is like the biggest diversity gap that you see, either in organizations or in culture? And then how, how do you think we close those gaps? 

Danny Wilson  43:23

So the hugest diversity gap is business ownership. And I feel like that's where Dr. Kane left off. And, you know, and rightly so I think that's the next frontier is to diversify the dollar, where we, you know, there's this financial protest, that is still happening against the black dollar. And what that really means is against black advancement, and we're already, you know, years behind just generationally. So, you know, how does that happen? It's hard to see how to affect that on a large scale from from the bottom up, but one of my hopes would be that, because it's not even, you know, all all American culture has adopted this system, black folks don't even necessarily vote for the black dollar, in all cases. So, you know, my hope is that we support black business as well businesses of color well, and allow them to grow to be to have their fighting chance, and to continue to try to push into these rooms where we can influence votes and in new directions.

Courtnee Wilson  44:41

I think I'll probably share what has consistently been on my heart for a while but I think is adding to why there's such a big diversity gap is not doing the work to undo what's there are the intentionality to undo whiteness to undo racism to move toward It's anti racist work. And that looks like doing the work. You know asking questions, seeking what you don't know I think anyone who would call themselves an activist or someone, anybody who's in a sector of work, there's work that there's we sit ourselves in a place of being teachable and constantly learning. Pulling from those who've gone before us and not thinking we know everything, you know, still being able to say there are things we don't know there. People have already done this before. Not creating something new all the time, but also creating you know, new things. But I'm doing the work on undoing what racism intentionally.

Bethaney Wilkinson  45:58

Thank you for listening to The Diversity Gap podcasts. If you've been challenged or inspired by what you've heard, please rate and review the show. You can also subscribe to make sure you never miss an episode. If you have thoughts or questions I'd love to hear from you connect with me at thediversitygap.com or on Instagram at The Diversity Gap. The Diversity Gap podcast is recorded on Muskogee Creek land in Atlanta, Georgia. This episode was produced by Matt Olin for Soul Graffiti Productions.