Intergenerational Diversity and Strategic Cultural Change w/ Glen Guyton
Episode Summary: In this episode of The Diversity Gap Podcast, Bethaney talks to Glen Guyton, a diversity and inclusion leader, and the Executive Director of the Mennonite Church USA. In this rich conversation, they discuss the nuances of intergenerational diversity, what it looks like to lead authentically, and the importance of having a strategy and pacing in our efforts for change.
Glen’s expertise in understanding culture has taken him from being a nerdy kid growing up in the suburbs of Houston, Texas to becoming an Air Force Officer in the United States Air Force, teaching middle school, to leading a national non-profit religious organization. Currently, Glen serves as the Executive Director of MC USA, the first person of color to serve in the role.
Episode Notes: Audiences from Kansas, to Kenya, to Costa Rica, to Texas have enjoyed hearing Glen speak on culture, workplace diversity, and other topics. His audiences have been composed of Kindergarten students, college students, corporate CEOs, religious leaders, and meeting planners, demonstrating his ability to connect with diverse groups.
To remain relevant in this global information age, we must be culturally competent. Glen has made it his mission to help organizations and individuals understand how to navigate the complex nature of culture. Glen works with organizations that want to improve productivity and profits through innovative leadership techniques and building intercultural competence. He also works with individuals trying to make sense of the culture in which they live, so that they can live their IDEAL lives.
Transcript
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, organizations, diversity, work, leaders, cultural competency, anti racism, intergenerational, intercultural, program, racism, race, glen, black, culture, lost, part, team, navigate, hear
SPEAKERS
Bethaney Wilkinson, Glen Guyton
Bethaney Wilkinson 00:00
Going into 2021 of my personal goals was to spend time learning about racial trauma. I know that sounds like a really big thing, and it is. But I was curious to know more about just my own experience of racial trauma, and then the experience and my family history and all these things. And so interestingly, my husband and I also decided at the end of last year to move in with my parents to save money. And, and this crazy and really cool thing about my family is that my parents have been foster parents for as long as I can remember. And they recently became the legal guardians of two teenagers who'd been with them for two years. So suddenly, my husband and I went from living in a small house with just the two of us to living in a much bigger house with my parents who are in their late 50s, early 60s, two teenagers once 15 months 16 And a baby crazy. They're currently fostering a 16 month old baby. And so we are living in this multi generational and multiracial home, and my husband is white, my parents are black, the teenagers are also white, the baby is black. And so it's just this fun, awesome thing. So much of my understanding about race, culture, and myself. And just in general, the impact of our different generational experiences is really shifting my perspective on The Diversity Gap. Welcome to The Diversity Gap podcast where we are exploring the gap between good intentions and good impact as it relates to diversity, equity and inclusion. My name is Bethaney Wilkinson and I am your host. Hey, and welcome to another episode of The Diversity Gap podcast. I don't think I've mentioned this directly since COVID-19, disrupted the whole world. But news alert COVID-19 has disrupted the entire world. So I am working in recording from home working with DJ ope D from Seoul graffiti productions to record all of my podcasts, virtually. So in the coming months. If my audio is funny or not studio quality in some way, I know that it's because I'm recording from a non studio in my house. Thanks for your patience and your grace here. And I hope that each of you and the people you love are staying well and safe in this time. Now for today's episode, you'll actually get to hear a conversation I recorded months ago, maybe even a year ago, you are about to hear a conversation I have with Glen Guyton. Now I got to to Glen via the diversity gap website, and was really excited to learn from him. He not only trains people in teams, and intercultural competency. But at the time of this recording, he was serving as the executive director of the Mennonite Church USA, and he was the first African American person to ever hold this role. And so in this conversation, we talked about a ton of things. Most prominently, we talk about intergenerational diversity, and what it looks like to lead authentically, and the importance of having a strategy in place when it comes to our efforts for change. And so I hope you enjoy this conversation and that you learn something new. My first question I ask every guest this is when did you first realize that you have a race or ethnicity? When did you first become awake to that reality?
Glen Guyton 03:39
Well, you know, I think I've always kind of been aware, I know that. So that sounds weird. But my parents were quite a bit older. And so my family was born in kausea school, Mississippi, and my parents grew up. I mean, really, my dad was born in 1907. My mother was born in 1928. So we always had discussions about race and the impact of, of race and how they were treated growing up. So I was very much aware of what it meant to be black from the perspective of a family and parents that grew up in the Deep South. I mean, you know, in Mississippi, in the heart of, you know, where people would think about racism, so I was very aware of it. And I think, though, when I made my first decision about race was probably when I was in the sixth grade. I grew up in a Presbyterian Church. And so the church that I went to was an historic Fifth Ward in Houston, Texas, and it was an all black Presbyterian Church. Our pastor was white though, but I would always go to different summer camps. I participated in a lot of the programs, and I was always or for the most part, one of the few black people that ever did went on these trips. And so at some point, I said, Myself, I said, Well, everyone knows me because I'm the only black kid here. But they're going to know me for something else other than just my skin color. If you're going to know me, you're going to know all of me, not just my ethnicity.
Bethaney Wilkinson 05:13
Wow. So that's a decision you kind of came to and you said you were in sixth grade?
Glen Guyton 05:17
I think it was around a time. Yeah. About sixth grade sixth, seventh grade.
Bethaney Wilkinson 05:20
Okay. Yeah. So how do you how did that play out? Like, not only in that context, but through high school and college and young adulthood?
Glen Guyton 05:29
Yeah, you know, it's an interesting thing, because I have been the only a one of the few black people, African American people in many of the contexts that I've been a part of, I've consciously made decisions to, I guess, not follow the normal path. And so even when I was in middle school, I left my, my, my district school and I went to another program, and the program was majority, white people. And the same thing with high school. But I've always found a good sense of, of who I was, as an African American, I've always had good relationships within the African American community. But a lot of my friends, we've all kind of, I guess, taking this alternative path. And we've been in programs that were We were not only a minority, but a very small minority, and some of these programs that were like college prep programs or programs for the gifted and talented. For some reason, I've been blessed to be able to participate in some of these other programs, whereas some of my peers and make the same choices.
Bethaney Wilkinson 06:36
Sure. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Um, I find that's really similar to with my story, I pretty early on, I was trapped into a gifted program, where I was the only black African American person for many, many years of that program. And it's amazing how those kind of extracurricular activities as you're growing up, can have such a profound impact on who you are, and how you see the world and on the relationships that you build.
Glen Guyton 07:01
Yeah, I mean, I think you get a good sense of racism. And some of those settings too. I mean, my friends, I was my friends and my core group, we were able to, I guess, you could say, navigate a number of different cultures. The high school I went to had two different hallways, we had what you call the regular hallway, and you had the Vanguard hallway, the Vanguard program, again, was majority, white students, and the handful of African American students that were part of that program, we actually had a different sense of privilege being a part of that program. And we were treated differently, in some sense, differently from our, our peers that were on the regular hallway, we could get away with a lot of stuff discipline was was implemented differently between the two hallways, is just amazing. As I as I think back about it, how Stark the contrast was between how me as an African American and a white program was treated, versus the African Americans in a more traditional environment treated?
Bethaney Wilkinson 08:02
Yeah, so would you? Um, would you say that some of these early experiences inform your work now, like, how did you get involved in diversity and cultural competency work? And what drives you to do it as an adult?
Glen Guyton 08:17
Yeah, I mean, I think it has, I mean, one of the things is, is that, you know, sometimes when you are a person of color, they just kind of drive you into this work, right? Oh, let's just hire the black person to do cultural competency work or anti racism work. And so that's kind of how you you find your way into that work at times. But I've always had a sense, a strong sense of my own identity as an African American. But I've also been able to do code switching. You know, I think many successful African American women, you know, people of color, have to be able to co switch to be able to shift between the two worlds we live in, and I think I've done it well, I've always cared about people in my community, and wanted to make sure that other people had the same opportunities that I did. So I think that's kind of how I got into that work. It's just just been being able to have been successful. And then people say, Hey, can you do this work? And I say, Sure, I'll do it.
Bethaney Wilkinson 09:19
Ah, okay. Yeah. So I think that's such an important dynamic that you just named, because in my experience, and in what I've observed in other organizations, you're totally right. It's like the person of color in the room, who is maybe the most practice that code switching. They somehow end up becoming like this diversity expert, even though they aren't a diversity expert. They're really just a person of color in the room. And I feel like there's this whole process of deciding, like, is this work that I'm supposed to do? Or do I need to do my job? I need to get paid extra to do this. It's like this whole world of thought around. Am I the person or am I just the person in the room right now?
Glen Guyton 09:59
Yeah, and And the other piece, I've been fortunate to actually work with some older people that I supervise now, but they were older, they were trailblazers, and they were actually versed in diversity and inclusion work. So I then I did go get the form of formal training, I took anti racism training, then I got certified as a qualified administer administrator of the intercultural Development Inventory. And then I started listening to podcasts like yours, and really doing my research to make sure that I wasn't just doing this work, because I'm black, but I really have a sense of the the history behind this work, you know, as you think about intersectionality, and how that originally started, Kimberly Crenshaw, you know, I really started delving into this work after I was put into the position.
Bethaney Wilkinson 10:51
Yeah, that's so great. And yeah, I think that's such an important distinction, even for our listeners that there is there's actual training context, history, skills, practices that go along with this work. It's not just about our hunches are hundreds are valid, but there's so much more that we can build on if we really want to become culturally competent. And if we want to shift the culture of our organizations. Um, so that kind of brings me to my next question for you. Because a lot of in a lot of the literature that I read about you in your work, you use the phrase cultural competency. And I think you're probably the first person I've had on the podcast that uses that particular framing. So can you unpack for us? What is cultural competency? And why is it important?
Glen Guyton 11:40
Yeah, we started looking at that, that word or that terminology, based on? How will our, I guess how well we did with anti racism, you know, anti racism is a scary word for a lot of people. People don't understand what racism is, for one thing. And so it is really an is very specific and narrowly focused. And so as I worked with more people in the dominant culture, white people, I needed to find a way to help them get to the point where they could understand anti racism. And so some of the people that I work with, we said, hey, let's, let's look at it in a cultural competency, because we have some issues, not only with people being racist, but we also have some intercultural things, even amongst people of color that we need to deal with. And so intercultural competence basically just deals with our ability to work with and navigate through differences. And so you're able to broaden the discussion beyond just race, but also talk about other identity factors, which could even be ability, identity, gender, nationality, religious identity, and so it really opens the door to have broad conversations about how well we can deal with people that are different from us. And then you can go back and start dealing with the specific identity factors searches, such as gender issues, racism, and, and some of the other challenges that we face based on our identity.
Bethaney Wilkinson 13:13
So it's almost like, I love that, like, it's a bridge for people, if your goal is to move people towards being anti racist, and to grappling with racism more directly, this cultural intercultural competency piece can be a part of the puzzle, that kind of an entree into the larger conversation.
Glen Guyton 13:31
It is, and some people may feel like it's a cop out, but I do think it helps people to understand what's going on. If people aren't familiar with the intercultural development continuum, it really takes you through five different phases of, of your mindset. So are you in denial, saying that there are no differences? You know, everybody should act the same way? Are you a, what we say more than the adaptation phase where it's kind of like the Shangri La of appreciating cultural differences and being able to work with people and understand the world from their point of view, it's about being able to shift your perspective, people that are on one end of the spectrum can only see the world through their eyes. People that are on the other end are able to say okay, I can appreciate the differences that you have. And this is how we can work together to create something new. I think that's the main sentence is helping people to say hey, everything is it from my perspective. And and I'll tell you how intercultural competency helped me because the anti racism work sometimes I think we as African Americans kind of get lost in it. It's, it's really just kind of a either you're racist or you're not. But there's, there's one phase and this this in a cultural competency, where we talk about minimization, and this where many of us that are successful in crossing cultures are minimization is kind of like hey, we just hate you. We all get along. It's kind of like the, you know, the Rodney King thing. Can we all get along? You know, this is this is where we're similar. And that's kind of where I was when I started this work, you know, because I had to fit in to get in. And and then you start to lose yourself and and you don't understand that even you as a person of color, or diminishing the value and the differences that you bring or that your co workers bring to a situation.
Bethaney Wilkinson 15:26
Wow, wow, okay, yeah, that's really good. Well, it's just a helpful framework. I think when I think about other Black and African American leaders that I work with a lot of our journey, especially as millennials to is waking up to the ways that we do minimize, and then trying to navigate what it looks like for us to break out of that mold in a way that doesn't cost us our jobs, or probably mostly our jobs than anything else, like how can we lead authentically and tell the truth of our experiences? While not breaking this entire thing apart? Like is that even possible?
Glen Guyton 16:08
Yeah, because minimization is a survival technique, because you don't, you know, when I go into a room, and it's even when, where I am now, as the executive director of an organization, I still have to be conscious that I can never be the angry black man, right? Like, I will lose the room, if I'm that angry black man. Whereas other people can show their emotions, they can cry, they can throw a tantrum. But oh, if I do it as an African American male, hey, you know, you, you're law. So you have to learn how to how to navigate all of that, while still trying to be authentic to who you are.
Bethaney Wilkinson 16:47
Mm hmm. Wow. Okay. That's a really nice segue. Um, I have a couple more questions about the intercultural competency piece, which I'll hopefully circle back to, but you currently serve as the executive director of Mennonite Church, USA, and from what I read, you're the first person of color to even be in this role. And so what was like the, what was the journey like to this position? What were some of the questions you had to ask yourself before taking the opportunity? I'd love to hear more about your journey.
Glen Guyton 17:18
Yes, it's a weird and interesting journey. I never planned to be leading this organization. And you know, the, the Mennonite church, I don't know if people are familiar with that they can go look it up. But you know, people often think of Amish but there there is a strong ethnic heritage, Swiss German heritage, Russian German heritage of people that are Mennonites, so there's a strong ethnic identity that goes along with this religious group. And so it's actually hard for people that aren't, that don't have a certain last name to be a part of this group. But I was actually fortunate to have a very strong mentor, African American male who also had a pretty large church in Hampton, Virginia, that introduced me to this to this group. And actually, he really learned how to, to communicate and understand the language and how to navigate the culture. And he really mentored me, I think that's a lost art it within our community is the art of mentorship is showing someone else the ropes, showing them how to communicate, showing them how to be successful. And so I had to learn how to speak the language of this organization, this institution that I was a part of. Now, I came in a little bit different way, because the Mennonites, also pacifist, and I was in the military. It's a weird story. I was a military officer. But so I came in kind of maybe with a little chip on my shoulder, but being myself, and I had a mentor who was strong and who, who understood who he was. And so even as so as I navigated the system, always was was always Glen, but every meeting I went into, I was glad that I didn't try to be the smartest one in the room. I did sit back and listen. But I learned the culture. But I never compromised who I was, I had a core base of you know of strength that I could go to I had a mentor I could go to I had a community that would support me in this work. And at the same time, then I could go and participate in this culture, this culture of being a Mennonite
Bethaney Wilkinson 19:29
wow. Oh, that's so fascinating. I mean, you mentioned intersectionality earlier and I love thinking about how nuanced and complex our identities are so even hearing you speak to like, there's the racial piece. There's the ethnic piece, there's the gender piece, but then even this military non military status pieces really interesting.
Glen Guyton 19:51
Yeah, it's been an interesting ride and it's been an honor to to have been selected. I don't take me be in this position for granted. It is a lot of pressure, you know, being the first that comes along with this position, I still have to navigate and manage culture, I don't try to go in and make the ethnic Mennonite culture, I don't try to take away from that I want to add to it, I don't go, don't try to make them value, the same things that I bet you as a black kid that grew up in Houston, Texas, because they are more East Coast based, they have a different experience. But I do bring elements of who I am to some of the programming, I tried to help identify other potential leaders of color that can participate in the programs or in the church, and also tried to say, Hey, these are some ways that we can move forward, if you're going to be an anti racist church, these are some of the things that you need to do. And so part of it is I think, it's pacing yourself when you're in these positions, some of us want to come shake up everything. That's really not my role as an internal person. I do think there's some people on the outside that need to do a little bit more shaking than I than I can. And so we all have to work together, we have to know our roles. And I guess what we're called to do, I'm really big on that, know what you're called to do? How can you impact change based on the power and authority that you have been given?
Bethaney Wilkinson 21:22
Absolutely, that sounds like a lot of I mean, that's just wisdom to hear you say that it makes me think I love what you just said about pacing, and even knowing your position within the entity, and knowing how to leverage exactly where you are for what needs to happen next. That's just that is super wise. I'm capturing that nugget from my own leadership. Um, yeah, I'm like, I'm gonna take that that's really good. So when you're thinking about this organization that you're leading, as an executive director, how do you measure progress towards this entity becoming antiracist? Or what does success look like for you? And how do you how do you measure it?
Glen Guyton 22:05
I don't know if there's a specific destination, right? You have to enjoy this journey. And I think that we've lost sight of what it took to get us here. And as African American Americans, especially especially, I mean, we've we've really shaped social justice and the civil rights movement within this this country. And so as you think back, if you as you think back about Dr. King, and and all of the people that were working around Dr. King, not just him, but you had the Black Panther Party, you had Malcolm X, you had all these different factors that came together to move us forward. And each of them had a different role. Dr. Martin Luther King was a strategist. I mean, he, he he strategically used the media, he used the the hatred of these other organizations to to get something that was workable to move us forward in the civil rights movement. And so as I think about my role is, you know, where can you make headway? What are where are some places where you can move the proverbial change, you can't change everything at the same time. You want to be specific. So whether it's leadership development, that those that's something that I'm big on, how do we get more leaders into positions? How do we get the right people at the table so that we can start influencing programs we can start influencing the language? Just being angry and protesting? I mean, it has its place not I don't I'm not discounting that. But just being angry and protesting without a strategy isn't effective. My goal is how do we set up a system where we continue to, to prepare other leaders so that you start getting more involved that you start understanding the language and start being able to speak at the appropriate levels of leadership?
Bethaney Wilkinson 23:58
So what would you say to leaders of color, who you're developing either within your current organization or in general, who feel like they have to change who they are in order to assume leadership positions within predominantly white institutions?
Glen Guyton 24:16
Yeah, don't don't change who you are. I wouldn't say that you have to be strategic about what you reveal what you reveal about yourself, I will say that you don't you know, I mean, you you put on nice clothes, when you go to work, you brush your teeth, you comb your hair. So sometimes we have to maybe, I don't know, I don't want to say Comey attitude, but it just pays to understand the system. First of all, you need to just watch and observe if you're new to a system to see what are the unwritten rules, you know, what are the where the landmines that you could step on by by accident and so you have to sit back and learn but you can be your authentic self. You just, I don't know if I don't want to know if you want to be patient. Your cell phone how you release some of those things. But you don't just you don't have to tell everybody everything right that's going on in your mind or in your life, you just have to be strategic about what you share when you share it. I mean, I think that goes for any relationships, but I would never deny who I am as an African American male. We just we just had a convention in, in Kansas City. I sang a song about nirvana. Because that's who I am Gen X, right? I know Nirvana Saint come as you are part of my presentation, they like, Oh, you're the first executive director to do that. I know, because I'm going to be me. That's the sense of my energy that I want to bring to this role. And so even as a young leader, you know, what are some of the things that you can bring to your your role, and do it strategically, when you are coming into these roles, when you're starting to be a leader, when you're on the rise, be strategic about what you share? And how you share it?
Bethaney Wilkinson 26:01
Yeah, it makes me think. So you mentioned just now, being Gen X, and I find an increasing challenge and opportunity that organizations are facing is intergenerational diversity. And so what are some of the biggest hangups you see intergenerational teams face? And how can they begin to overcome some of those barriers?
Glen Guyton 26:26
Yep, communication is probably the biggest challenge that I see in organizations, boomers, want to narrate everything, they want to control information, they want to limit the amount of information that flows, they really value the the hierarchy and the mechanical authority as it relates to the institution. Then as you get to the younger generations, you bet you move a sense of transparency, open communication, you don't deserve my respect, but you earned my respect. And I want to be able to, to communicate and talk to you about the decisions that are going on, don't just tell me, this is how it's going to be, I want to participate in the discussion. And so it's a big shift from this kind of more hidden type of, of way of exercising power and limiting the scope of who has information to a broadening of that. And I think it's actually I think it's healthy, that we're becoming more transparent. Because it, it helps bring out situations of abuse, whether it's racism, where whether it's sexual abuse, those things are coming out now, because I feel younger generations are more open to sharing. And for some of the older generation, that's a scary thing, because they've hidden so much. They've used power in subversive ways. Now, with more transparency. It provides more opportunity for people to call out evil to call out abuse of power when it happens. Yeah,
Bethaney Wilkinson 27:53
what are some of the that's so that's so good. And so true? I see that a lot. What would you say are some things that maybe boomers or people from the older generation can do to adapt to receiving the younger generation into their organizations? And then when I ask you that same question, on the other side, what are some things that younger people can be aware of? As we're entering into organizations? If if that, yeah,
Glen Guyton 28:21
I think first of all, is that if you are supervising the millennials, and upcoming Gen Z is just spend some time talking to your your employees, your staff, you know, when you have staff meeting, provide time for people to give you feedback into what's going on, you have to be very careful how you roll out new programs and information, make sure you provide some opportunity for your workers to give you feedback to talk about it to discuss it, don't just say this is the way it is, this is what we're going to do. You have to have a more participatory type of leadership. Also, you know, it's about what type of other perks and things are you going to offer these young people that are part of your workforce, you know, there, there's some simple things that you could do to create a totally different atmosphere, it may be helping with some college tuition or providing doughnuts or letting them bring the dogs to work. I mean, some simple things that aren't very disruptive, but it can really change how the workplace feels and how people react to you. And let your guard down. You know, take your title off. Everyone knows you're in charge. You don't have to remind people you signed a paycheck, you have plenty of power, you know, you have plenty of authority, kick back, you know, talk to people like they are human beings not like you're their supervisor.
Bethaney Wilkinson 29:42
When you think about okay, so like some of these intergenerational tensions and lay over that the reality of racial tension and and the need for cross cultural competency work. Do you find that there are Some distinct barriers that older people in the workplace face related to this topic that maybe younger people don't I think the transparency piece touches on that. But I'd love to hear more of your thoughts around that intersection of race in the workplace, but then also being from a different different generation.
Glen Guyton 30:15
Yeah, yeah, I do I just find it, it's a little bit more challenging for some of the older people to, to understand gender issues, racial issues, they don't understand why it's a big deal. Again, they would probably be more in the minimization thing. Well, hey, we're all alike. In this we all, you know, can we just all get along? These are the similarities that we have? Why do we have to focus on all these other differences. And so it's a, it's a hard transition for some people to become aware of the things that will get you locked up nowadays, you know, some of the behavior that was tolerated in past years isn't acceptable, you just can't tell those jokes at work anymore. You can't behave this way with with women at work anymore. You can't cover up this anymore. It's just not acceptable. And some people are having a challenge with that, and they find the trans parents see unnerving, it threatens who they are, it threatens their entity, and it threatens their their stability, where they had ongoing power to, you know, basically kind of do what what they wanted to in the in the workplace. Now that's being challenged, and they feel like they're losing something.
Bethaney Wilkinson 31:28
I think that's so helpful. Because as we're leading this work, either through like really structured things like trainings or workshops, or even just having these conversations across the table, from a supervisor or on our teams, I think being aware of how the conversation about race might impact people's identities is really helpful, I think for me, because because I'm thinking about race all the time, and it's already so I'm already aware of how it's interacting with my identity. It's not a new thought, and it doesn't feel like a threat to name what's happening, that I struggled to remember sometimes that for other people, for majority culture, or white culture leaders, it's, yeah, it threatens their sense of who they are.
Glen Guyton 32:17
I mean, I know why people let that tell me what, especially white men, oh, you know, we're losing, we're losing everything, or I can't get this because I'm, I'm not, you know, I'm not black. I'm not a woman. There's no place for me, me anymore. Like, it's a place for you, if you do a good job, how do you think I think I've been feeling man, I have to be, you know, 10 times better just to be equal. So so, you know, so I'm not against I'm not one of these people to say as all you know, like, I like I hate white men. That's not me at all. I mean, I have, you know, a variety of friends and people in my life. If you are a person who has good skills, and you are willing to work with me and be a part of my community, I'm going to welcome you in. Just because someone else is getting a step up doesn't mean that that you're losing something. We're just saying that we all need to share in this work we need to share in the life that we're living.
Bethaney Wilkinson 33:11
Um, there was a line that I saw in one of your videos that stuck out to me and it said that racism is far more expensive than good training. Can you unpack this premise for me and for our listeners?
Glen Guyton 33:26
Well, I'm a diversity and inclusion trainer. And so I do work with organizations, and you can fly me out and let me spend a half day with your organization for a reasonable amount of money. But if you have a lawsuit, because of discrimination, and I've worked with some some organizations that have, you know, attorneys are expensive, the time that you have to spin reorienting your work, force is expensive, the downtime that you're going to face because you're dealing with traumatic issues based on race or, or gender or other types of discrimination discrimination are very costly. If you look at some of the faux pas that have gone on with just culturally incompetent are racist ads, how much money have those companies lost hundreds of 1000s if not millions of dollars of money they've lost because of a bad ad. Productivity going down your team instead of making you money is responding to negative press. You look at the situation with the these governors in a black with black face. Now how much time and energy is that taking away from the productive work that you could you could be doing? But if you spend some time focused on being proactive, learning how to be culturally competent, it is a lot cheaper to be proactive, rather than reacting to trouble once it happens.
Bethaney Wilkinson 34:55
Absolutely. I'm wondering for so for community to be leaders and organization leaders who are doing their own research, listening to podcasts, reading books, and they're trying to figure out like their first steps and translating what they're learning to their team and with their and the people they're leading, what are some really practical ways that leaders can begin integrating racial equity or cross cultural competency work into the fabric of what they're already doing? I know that hiring you call it bringing you out is one option? And do you have other ideas for where people can say,
Glen Guyton 35:32
No, I think that you, first of all, you have to set your objectives. What are your goals? What do you hope to accomplish? You can't just say, hey, we want to be more diversity inclusive? What does? What does that mean? What does that mean? You have to really define that what what specific aspects of diversity and inclusion? Are you going to be focused on? It? Are your goals even attainable, you know, like, based on the demographics of where you live, what is going to be the challenges or where you work. And then you have to say, well, do I have the right people on my team to make progress. You know, if I'm going to say I want to target Asian males, we don't have any Asian males in your, on your team or in the planning, you've already set yourself back, because you're going to develop something that's going to be more hurtful and harmful, than it will be effective. And that's what happens. A lot of times in this work, you get a group of monocultural people planning to be diverse, diverse and inclusive. And they put together a program that's just horrible. And so understand what your goals are, get the right people to help you to start moving toward those goals. But many of us just say, we're going to work on diversity inclusion, we don't have any specific targets. We don't even really know what we're looking at,
Bethaney Wilkinson 36:49
Mhm, yeah. And then when there's the lack of clarity and specificity, it really makes accountability. Impossible. Yeah.
Glen Guyton 36:58
I mean, if you think about my team that I work with, I have Millennials on my team, I have Gen Xers on my team, and I have boomers on my team. And all of those groups have different ways of communicating. But they're all on my team. And so when we talk through issues, I may have what I think is a great idea. If there's somebody to say, Ah, I'm not hearing it that way. Another group will say, will say, Hey, I'm hearing exactly like that. So right then and there, I know, I need to shape my message in a way that I can reach a broader group. Because I have knowledge because I have a diverse group of people, looking at things, reading things, thinking about the processes, but if everybody thought, like Glenn, we would have a messed up team, and we will be offending a whole bunch of people.
Bethaney Wilkinson 37:44
Yeah, I think yes. That's really good. Yeah, I just appreciate that. Okay, so my last question for you. And this is how I close out all of my conversations is when you look at organizations and teams, and even when you think about your work broadly, and not only being an Executive leader, but then in supporting so many other corporations and organizations. What are the biggest diversity gaps that you see?
Glen Guyton 38:17
People tend to surround themselves with people that are just like them. It's even something that I have to be aware of, as an African American leader, I want to make sure that I have people on my team that will challenge me, we need to have the same vision, we need to be heading in the right direction, but you want people to be a part of your team that disagree with you that have different perspectives and have different experiences. That's important to the productivity of any organization, you can go online, look at Harvard Business Review. The data suggests that diverse and inclusive teams are more productive, that they earn more that they're more creative. And many of us are stuck in the sense where we just want to hire our friends, we want to hire people that just talk like us that have the same perspective. As as and as very unhealthy. I don't care who you are. And so that the gap is, is that again, we have to get the right people in the room, we have to have a diverse team, we have a team to have to also be inclusive. So it's not just you know, what people look like. But we want to make sure people can bring their gifts and talents to the situation, that they actually have the ability to shape what we do, how the organization runs that we value the knowledge that they have. And I think that's the biggest gap is that we circle the wagons is you know, is that good old boy network. It's the is how we limit how we select people that are part of our team. You know, there's always excuse when we can't find any good fill in the blank. Well, where are you looking? Are you looking at it? Traditional places, are you ever uncovering talents by going out by venturing out targeting of areas that you wouldn't normally target? bringing in people with expertise? That's how you start working at these things in, in in an effective manner. But if it's just the same old, same old, the usual suspects, as, as I like to say, making the decisions, you're going to get the same old results.
Bethaney Wilkinson 40:23
Mm hmm. Well, that's yeah, that's a really great place to land the plane. Right. All right. Yeah. It's super wise. Thank you so much for your time, Glenn, thanks for reaching out and connecting and for sharing so much of your wisdom and insights. With this community, if people want to keep up with you, or find you or hire you, where can they look?
Glen Guyton 40:45
Well, it's easy to find me on social media. Just go to any social media platform. It's Glen Guyton, so G L E N, G U Y T O N and if you want to go to my website is glengotguyton.com. Click on there, I even help have some free downloads on there for you. So so check it out.
Bethaney Wilkinson 41:10
I had so many takeaways from this conversation with Glen, but the one that stands out to me most I guess, second most they've talked or have alluded to the impact of the multi generational intergenerational community piece. But the second thing that stuck out to me most is the importance of intercultural competency. And just thinking about what it looks like for us to really and truly appreciate our differences more, what does it look like in our work settings or in our communities to pause when tensions arise and to consider that cultural differences of some sort are probably at play? What if we could have the self awareness to know okay, I can either assume that I know what's going on, or I can be curious about this interaction and learn more. Um, a great book I'm reading about on this topic is called Flex by Jane hin. And I'm at the very beginning of the book, but it's been really great so far, and I'm looking forward to learning more about how we can all flex our leadership styles, using a skills and intercultural competency to really serve people around us better. So thanks so much for listening. And that's all I've got for this episode. I'll catch you next time. Thank you for listening to The Diversity Gap podcast. If you've been challenged or inspired by what you've heard, please rate and review the show. You can also subscribe to make sure you never miss an episode. If you have thoughts or questions, I'd love to hear from you connect with me at thediversitygap.com or on Instagram @TheDiversityGap. The Diversity Gap podcast is recorded on Muskogee Creek land in Atlanta, Georgia. This episode was produced by Matt Olin for Soul Graffiti Productions.