In Hope of Every Good Thing - The Diversity Gap Podcast Series Finale
In this episode, Host Bethaney Wilkinson chats with her friend, Kayla Stagnaro, who appeared on the very first episode of the show. They discuss their favorite episodes, learnings from the time spent podcasting, and plans for the continued work of The Diversity Gap.
About The Diversity Gap:
The Diversity Gap is a coaching and facilitation practice for racial conscious leaders and team. Learn more and find DEI support at www.thediversitygap.com or @thediversitygap on Instagram and LinkedIn.
Shownotes:
Podcast Archive:
https://www.thediversitygap.com/podcast
Growth Collective:
https://www.thediversitygap.com/growth-collective
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, conversation, diversity, podcast, gap, organizations, episode, thinking, talk, world, dei, love, kayla, community, life, learned, feel, series finale, years, audience
SPEAKERS
Bethaney Wilkinson, Kayla Stagnaro
Bethaney Wilkinson 00:12
Hi there, welcome to another episode of The Diversity Gap podcast. My name is Bethaney Wilkinson and I am your host, I am the founder of The Diversity Gap, the coaching and facilitation practice. I'm also author of The Diversity Gap where good intentions meet true cultural change. And I am a facilitator. I'm a coach, I am a DEI practitioner. And I really love being able to support organizations as they seek to embody their values for racial justice. Now, today's conversation is super special, because it's my last one. This is a series finale for The Diversity Gap podcast, which is really bizarre to say, but also really liberating, because this change has been coming for a long time. And I've gone back and forth on whether or not I want to make the shift or not. And after some deliberation, reflection, talking to people that I love, I concluded that good things can end good things have sunsets, and, and for me, it's time, it's time, as some of you may know, The Diversity Gap was launched as a podcast about three years ago. And at the time, I was working in a nonprofit organization. And I was really informally doing research on the gap between organizations, good intentions for diversity and the impact of those intentions. And so just in my life, as I talk to different nonprofit leaders, and social enterprise founders, I would want to understand their value for this effort. And they would say, you know, we, we care about diversity, we value racial justice, and there would be really beautiful intentions and language given to this value. But then I would talk to members on those teams, especially leaders of color, and really specifically women of color in these organizations. And they would be having pretty negative experiences of powerlessness of disrespect of, of gatekeeping, impostor syndrome, just really negative experiences. And so I wanted to understand this gap. How do we have organizations where the leadership says, Hey, we value this, we have this intention for having a diverse organization. But then when I talk to people who are experiencing that experiencing the organization, the impact wasn't so great. And so The Diversity Gap podcast launched three years ago to explore this gap. And it has been such an amazing ride, I've had the best guests, the best conversations, the most amazing audience, the podcasts launched before the racial reckoning of 2020. It came into the world before the COVID-19 pandemic. And so it really was a different world and so many ways. And it's been a real treat to grow as a, as a thinker, as a podcaster as an author, and creative over the course of the past three years. And I've heard from so many of you listeners, just the impact that this podcast has had on you and your lives and in your organization's and those emails that I get just, you know, it's really, it's even hard to give language to how meaningful it is to know that the conversations I've been having here in my community to see how they have touched people all over the world. At this point, The Diversity Gap podcast has been downloaded nearly 300,000 times worldwide, which is just so much more than I ever expected for this show. And so if you have been a faithful listener, if you have been here for the past few years, I just want to say thank you for your active support and engagement as I have tried new things and shifted and and as I've grown and matured, I feel like this community has really been just a really great and generous space for me to do work that I know and believe is really important. And it again means the world to me that it's found resonance in your organizations and in your companies and in your families and in your churches. It just it's amazing. So this is the series finale and I thought it would be really really fun to bring back the voice from the very first episode that I ever did. And one of my best friends in the world Her name is Kayla. She interviewed me for the first episode ever of The Diversity Gap. Now, if you are looking for the episodes from the first two seasons because they're not on the main feed, you would have to go back to thediversitygap.com/podcast and scroll through the archive to find this episode. And so it was from August 2019 and Kayla interview me about my hopes and fears for this project and all the things that I was dreaming about as it related to The Diversity Gap. And so I thought it would be super fun to bring her back. She interviewed me I talked to her We laughed a lot about some of my favorite episodes, her favorite episodes, and what we hope we hope for this audience going into the future. So without further ado, thank you so much for being here. Listen to this final episode with one of my best friends Kayla Stagnaro. Hi, Kayla.
Kayla Stagnaro 05:37
Hello. It's good to be back.
Bethaney Wilkinson 05:41
Oh, my gosh, it's been a while.
Kayla Stagnaro 05:44
Yeah. Has it really been four years? Since you started this whole thing?
Bethaney Wilkinson 05:50
Is it three August 2019? So maybe it's three full years?
Kayla Stagnaro 05:55
Okay. Three full years.
Bethaney Wilkinson 05:58
But longer, yeah, that I've been thinking about it, you know?
Kayla Stagnaro 06:02
Oh, yeah. Totally.
Bethaney Wilkinson 06:03
Even The Diversity Gap
Kayla Stagnaro 06:04
Thinking about it. Right. So cool. Three years. Okay. So why are we here today?
Bethaney Wilkinson 06:13
Well, because sometimes you gotta land the plane.
Kayla Stagnaro 06:17
Okay. Tell me more about landing the plane.
Bethaney Wilkinson 06:20
Yeah, well, it's been a really good run, I feel like The Diversity Gap podcast because I'm not, you know, done with The Diversity Gap. It's my coaching and facilitation practice and like, still, you know, creating content and working with teams. But the podcast portion. On the one hand, it's been amazing, like so many incredible guests, so many incredible listeners, like around the globe, which is just the most bizarre for people, they'll be like, This podcast was used in my team's thing in France. And it's like, what, like, what,
Kayla Stagnaro 06:54
that's a wild thing.
Bethaney Wilkinson 06:57
But then also, over the last three years, I've changed a lot. And I've changed the ways that I want to show up to this work and the kinds of spaces I want to facilitate conversations in, and I'm only one woman and so I don't know, it feels good to land the plane on something that I'm so proud of. And yeah, to just move on to different things.
Kayla Stagnaro 07:19
Will The Diversity podcasts still, like live in the interwebs?
Bethaney Wilkinson 07:23
Oh, yeah, for sure all of the former episodes will still live on the diversity gab.com. And I don't foresee taking down like the thread anytime soon, like maybe one day. But it'll still be there. For people who who want it. It's there. It's still there for you. Yeah,
Kayla Stagnaro 07:41
it's such a great resource. Like you said, like, even just I know, there's been a couple of times when I've pointed somebody to a specific episode and been like, hey, we talked about this, check this out. I think it'll be continuing to be a great resource, whether there's new information or that.
Bethaney Wilkinson 07:58
Yeah, I think so. And I still refer episodes to clients and things to like, oh, this expert would really be able to help you think through that, or this perspective might give you a new language for your conversation. So yeah, I'm happy that I mean, that's one of the gifts of the internet, right? Like it can just kind of exist. Until I don't know the world ends, we'll see.
Kayla Stagnaro 08:16
Yeah, love it. All right. Well, tell us maybe a couple of learnings from the past few years.
Bethaney Wilkinson 08:23
Wow. Honestly, the first thing that comes to mind is that podcasting is not for the faint of heart. And, and by that I just mean like the operations of it, like you think, Oh, we're just gonna set up some mics and talk to people which you do. Like, that's part of it. But you know, this kala, like, with your team's podcast history, it's like it's so much more than that. It's the production. It's the storytelling. It's, it's the promotion of whatever it is that you're talking about. And, very practically
Kayla Stagnaro 08:53
I was getting multiple calendars to line up is like, probably one of the hardest.
Bethaney Wilkinson 09:02
Absolutely, absolutely. And so really, practically, that's been a big learning. But I think I would also I've also learned, just I don't know how broad and nuanced our engagement with these topics has to be, just because the world is so big. And I know that might be really lofty, but I had a friend who is who lives in Australia right now. And she's doing some work with her team around white supremacy culture specifically. And the way that phrase that idea lands in Australia is completely different than the way it lands where I am in Georgia. And so even though we're using similar words like we are present to different histories and different contexts, and so, one of the gifts of this podcast over the last few years has been able to has been being able to talk to people in so many different places and finding And like the three lines that are consistent, especially when we think about power and identity, and change, but then also realizing like, oh, this person who leads the church is thinking about this differently than this person who leads a corporation or this person who leads a national nonprofit, or this person who leads just their small consulting Studio, you know, like, it's all, it's all different. And it's, and I think that's what the work requires. Because we're in such different places, you know,
Kayla Stagnaro 10:28
I love that, because I think when you first kind of dreamed up this idea, and it's like podcast came to life, I don't think you were thinking about that, like the impacts, like global impact versus, you know, a little more localized, you know, southeast, maybe, you know, California, somewhere up north. So it's cool to see how that idea like, literally, is being, like creating an impact.
Bethaney Wilkinson 10:59
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I think it's fair for, I mean, in many ways, like The Diversity Gap was born of very personal things that I was navigating, like, personal challenges that I lived challenges I've learned from like talking to my friends and their communities. And so I think it makes sense that, in its original, you know, iterations, I was mostly thinking about me and where I'm at, and the people that I know. But I also love that when we do zoom out a good bit, seeing how people across the globe, and even just across a nation are interacting with these ideas, it makes all of our thinking sharper, like, it makes us all better when we're like, Oh, that is interesting that it lands differently in Australia than here. What does that mean about the nature of this problem? And how do I understand that while still focusing on the local solutions, I can actually advocate for my real life. I guess that feels important to me, because one of the other big pieces of this over the last couple of years has been seeing how what did feel like a personal problem became like this was like this national worldwide movement for change. And then seeing all of the ways like, things that I thought just me and my friends talked about, have become like mainstream, if that makes sense, like. So I don't know, I feel like I'm rambling a little bit now. But I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's one thing to understand the problem. It's another thing to apply local solutions, but it's not an either, or we have to do both of those things in order to bring the best solutions to bear.
Kayla Stagnaro 12:35
That's good. Any other learnings you want to share about?
Bethaney Wilkinson 12:40
Oh, I mean, I've learned a lot about myself. Not that I need to, you know, belabor this with the with The Diversity Gap podcast listeners, but I mean, I feel like I've grown up over the course of the last few years and doing this work I've learned what kind of work is like, that matches me as a person and what kind doesn't like, Oh, I'm not a strategist, I'm more of a facilitator. Oh, I'm not like an activist. But I do like having conversations, like I've just learned a lot about who I am and how I show up to not only diversity related work, but to the world as a creative human. And that's been selfishly one of the biggest gifts this process has offered me.
Kayla Stagnaro 13:25
I mean, I could definitely relate to that. Like, many years ago, when I was running a business, it was like, I don't see it as like a failure or an end. It's like what I learned about myself was the most helpful and most impactful going forward throughout the journey, right. Yeah, it's cliche,
Bethaney Wilkinson 13:45
but it's so true. I mean, I don't think good things have to last forever.
Kayla Stagnaro 13:51
You know, good. Yeah. Okay, so, what have been some of your most memorable episodes? I have a couple.
Bethaney Wilkinson 14:01
Oh, I can't wait to hear yours. The first one that came to mind is Dr. Darnisa Amante Jackson, I've listened back to that episode multiple times. And
Kayla Stagnaro 14:11
I know Jeff and I have referenced it at plywood to so many different organizations.
Bethaney Wilkinson 14:17
Yeah, it is just so good. She is just so wise. And the way she broke down how long it takes organizations to really change like that eight to 10 year window. I just think especially in like the heat of a crisis moment where you're realizing like, oh, here are all the ways our organizations falling short, and all the things we want to do to improve it. It's so helpful to have someone smart and who knows this stuff to say, whoa, whoa, let's slow down we need like a 10 to 15 year runway here. And that's mean making it even longer than what she said but like we need a long runway here to make a difference, which for some won't feel fast enough. And for others will be too too fast, actually. But reality is like, Let's slow this thing down a little bit and get really clear about who we are what we're trying to accomplish. So that one was one of my favorites. Really good. Yeah. I'm trying to think of what I mean. There's so many I think of my conversation with Dr. Jerome Lubbe. And how neuro or how our neurology affects how we show up to communities and how we navigate difference. That was super interesting, like a really unique take on the problem. Gosh, oh, and then Stephanie Ghoston Paul, that was like therapy for me. She's a coach at Cultivated Sense, and we just talk a lot about, like, who we are as people and how black women have choices. And that was a really liberating conversation for me specifically, so I remember that one too.
Kayla Stagnaro 15:49
Good. I love that. Okay, mine are actually different. Okay, so one of the first ones I remember, you texted me on both of those, and you were like, Guess you I got confirmed. And one of them was Aiko Bethea. Yeah. And so good. She talks about this idea of values and behavior, how we might have the same value, but how we act on that how our how we behave might be completely different. And really talks about, like how to have those conversations about how showing up differently, and embodying that same value. Just as I was so interesting, and like, refreshing and helpful, especially like, you know, trying to look at it through the lens of optimism. Yeah, I love that. And then you also introduced me when we worked together to Sarah, from Pantsuit Politics. And yeah, that when you texted me or like, guess, but and there was this one thing they talked about, that I keep thinking about, but I think they got it from somebody else. So please go listen to this, this episode with Paintsuit Politics, but they talked about this idea of somebody saying, Hey, here's what you missed. And in, you know, a situation a conversation and marketing strategy, here's what you missed. But reframing your thinking, to be like, Okay, this is what we're adding, moving forward. Here's the addition. And I loved that. It's just getting to these really hard conversations with an attitude and mindset of learning and continuing to move forward. Because if it does take eight to 10 years, you can't get defeated. Every time there's pushback, or you make a mistake. You gotta keep going.
Bethaney Wilkinson 17:50
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I learned so much from Sarah and Beth. I was so nervous. I think I even said that intro to that episode. I'm like people I'm interviewing to have like their internet celebrities to me. So I need to go back and re listen to that one. Because I think I was so starstruck that I probably wasn't as focused as I
Kayla Stagnaro 18:11
It was a really good conversation. And I think it was a different conversation for them to it was like, you know, parallel to the work they do, but cool to just hear them in a different different format.
Bethaney Wilkinson 18:24
Yeah, yeah. Any any others? that stuck out to you?
Kayla Stagnaro 18:27
Um, those were my two, kind of, I don't know, favorites that I keep, like referring back to.
Bethaney Wilkinson 18:34
Yeah, cool. Oh, it's it feels funny trying to pick a favorite or favorites, because I know that there are so many points from ones that I'm missing. I think of David Bailey's episode, I learned a lot from him. And then even my book launch podcast series, like those were some really rich conversations to just, man. Yeah, so many good people.
Kayla Stagnaro 18:55
All right. Well, let's transition a bit. Tell us about what are you thinking about dreaming about? What's next?
Bethaney Wilkinson 19:05
What's next? Good question. Um, part of me is like, why I'm gonna keep doing what I'm doing, which is working with teams and organizations. One of my favorite things in life right now is this thing that I do called the Growth Collective. And it's like this cohort of nine dei practitioners from across the world. And we meet every few weeks, like this morning, we have a session, and I'm just obsessed with them. They are so sharp, creative, interesting, so deeply committed to the work of transformation in their different contexts. And that is so life giving. I mean, that's one of the reasons I don't have as much space to host conversations is because I want to be more present to support leaders who are doing this work in their own places. So I'm thinking a lot about that. But I'm also thinking a lot about race conscious leadership, which is kind of how I've started and those who are listening to this episode of the podcast will have heard me Talk about this before, but really, for myself, and then for the teams that I work with shifting the conversation from how do we fix everything overnight to how do we honor and acknowledge our differences and move forward with an ever evolving awareness of what's happening. And that might sound kind of woowoo. And again, not intense enough for some people, but I've been having lots of conversations lately with just elders in my life and, and realizing that some of these issues are not going anywhere, but we can show up to them with more awareness, with more humility, with more curiosity, in some ways that makes our efforts for change a bit more sustainable. So I'm just thinking a lot more about like the whole person, and how do we sustain our engagement in the world without burning out and without having our advocacy be tied to what's happening in the headlines and to like moments of crisis and stress? Like, what does it mean to be conscious of race to be aware of power dynamics, to not be limited by it, but to just bring that awareness to everything that we do, as leaders. So that's something I'm thinking about, I don't fully know if and how those thoughts are going to be flushed out more going in the future, I, again, really am loving my work in organizations and with people. And that's really, I mean, that's just the best thing, like, in some ways, I am a little bit burned out on the internet, even though I love it. And so it's really, it's really nice to be able to flush out these ideas in the context of real relationships.
Kayla Stagnaro 21:32
Yeah, I love that. Just even what you said about how to how to find ways to live out like this race conscious leadership and not just be tied up in the news cycle. I that. I totally relate to that. And I think that's really interesting. And that's, that's gonna be the way to move forward, because keeping up with the news cycle is not sustainable. No, I'm reacting in that way.
Bethaney Wilkinson 22:02
It's not. And I'm also realizing, and this is just like a more broad personal life reflection, because I mean, you know, this, my life has changed a lot over the last few years. Like, I went from working and being deeply involved in an organization with friends to working by myself, primarily, I went from living in the city to living out in this farm, and in this farming community. And so even that shift of seeing like, Okay, some of these ideas and frameworks are very, like urban, which is awesome. And how do they translate here? And now that I'm in literally, cattle country and central Georgia, like to someone really need my framework? No, you know, there are other race related issues. But how do I move it from being like an academic exercise to being like, really invested in building community in the place that I live? And so I think that's another big part of the shift for me, like, moving from Yeah, moving from the heavy stuff that feels cool and important, because it is to like, Okay, what's my real life look like? And how does this serve my actual neighbors?
Kayla Stagnaro 23:04
I like that. It's really, really inspiring. Yeah, I think that's one thing we learned too. It's like, when you can be in community to like, with the people you like, work and live near there. I feel like it's way, easy is not the right word. But it's, I guess, easier to notice real and lasting change.
Bethaney Wilkinson 23:31
Yeah, I mean, and check back with me in a few years. There's this. Yeah, it's like, what is that they still think that who knows? I may be in the city again, you know, doing a different thing. But, but that's where I'm at today.
Kayla Stagnaro 23:47
It's good. Like, all right. Um, what do you hope for this body - The Diversity Gap listeners?
Bethaney Wilkinson 23:56
Oh, I just hope for all the best things. I wish, I wish you all could see me I'm just like, Oh, my goodness, I love you. But I really do like, ust this audience is amazing. And I, I know that we do see news cycles, and it can feel like the world is ending. But there are so and I've said this on the show before, there are so many humans who are showing up every single day, and bringing their best to their families, to their workplaces, to their churches, to their nonprofits, to their community spaces. And so while it can feel like oh my gosh, it's a dumpster fire. I know for a fact because I interact with this audience. You know, when they email me and seeing people share things online, it's like these people are out here doing the work, doing the self reflection, speaking up, saying I'm sorry, trying again, building new strategies, like we're out here doing the work and so I hope for this audience that they stay inspired and encouraged and, and creative and that they take brakes, you know, as needed to sustain and, and I hope that the audience isn't afraid to innovate and not afraid to change. And yeah, I just want all the best things for the people who listened to this show.
Kayla Stagnaro 25:14
Good to hear that rewind to back and listen again. Um, okay, so Well, I'm not sure if this is the last question you can tell me. But um, how can people stay connected? Where can they find you? Can they join the next Growth Collective? What are what are the details?
Bethaney Wilkinson 25:36
Yeah, I mean, the best way to stay connected is to go to thediversitygap.com. And to join the newsletter, I don't send out a lot of emails I'll do in certain seasons, I'm more of a emailer in the spring, early summer. And so if you're wanting someone who only shows up every so often, for better or for worse, that's me. But um, the newsletters like the best way, and then social media, but again, I'm not even on Instagram that much. And so www.thediversitygap.com. And then there should be a pop up, if you haven't signed up already, or you can scroll down to the bottom of the page, and you can add your email there. But that's the best way. And then the next Growth Collective launches in January. And so if you are a DEI practitioner, whether it is like your official formal title or not, because I know that there are a lot of people who are leading DEI, even though it's not like their official title, whichever category you fall in. This is a four month cohort for practitioners and it's super life giving. That's what I've gathered from this group. It's super life giving, we're even, I mean, the group that I'm currently leading, there's rumbles about us meeting in person next spring, like to have a retreat because we've so loved getting to know each other and doing this work together. And so if you're looking for that kind of community support, the space is awesome. So you can join us in January and all of that information is on the website as well.
Kayla Stagnaro 27:01
All right, anything else? Any parting words?
Bethaney Wilkinson 27:05
No, I don't think so. I appreciate you Kayla jumping in and being here from the beginning,
Kayla Stagnaro 27:10
of course.
Bethaney Wilkinson 27:12
So it's just a huge gift to to be in this conversation with you. And originally I was like, oh, I'll just record something by myself. And then I was like, No, that's lame. Let me talk to my friend. Thank you. Yeah, and thanks to the audience. You all have been amazing and I'm so thankful for you