How to Be the Change You Want to See at Work w/ Stephanie Ghoston Paul

Episode Summary: In this episode of The Diversity Gap Podcast, Bethaney talks with coach and consultant Stephanie Ghoston. Stephanie works at the intersection of leadership development and organizational change, with an emphasis on empowering black women to become the most free versions of themselves. In this rich conversation, Stephanie connects the dots between the personal work and collective work required to shift a culture. She also invites us to imagine a new and emergent future where power is shared more equitably and where marginalized folks are thriving.

TRANSCRIPT

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

folks, organization, impact, people, work, stephanie, options, equity, thinking, community, black women, white supremacy, individual, ways, dominant culture, diversity, racism, gap, excited, relates

SPEAKERS

Bethaney Wilkinson, Stephanie Ghoston

Bethaney Wilkinson  00:00

It's so easy to think that when we're trying to solve problems in general, not just problems related to race, but problems in general, it's so easy to think that the solution is outside of us, we think that oh, the work needs to be done over there, or this leader needs to get their life together, or this structure needs to be changed, or, or this entire company needs to start from scratch. And those things may very well be true. I'm not saying that our observations about dysfunctional or broken things in society are wrong. But I am saying that there is this human tendency to put most of the work outside of ourselves. But reality is, a lot of the work can also and and also has to happen inside internal, the attitudes that we carry, the ways we show up in the world, our own biases, our own limiting thoughts, so much of the work for solving any problem in society, any problem in the world starts inside. And so I don't know I've been thinking about that a lot. And when I'm quick to criticize or judge what someone else is doing, I've been trying to pause and consider is this a thing that's also is this thing of striving me crazy about them? Also something that is inside of me. Welcome to the diversity gap podcast, where we are exploring the gap between good intentions and good impact as it relates to diversity, equity and inclusion. My name is Bethaney Wilkinson and I am your host. Hey, welcome to another episode of The Diversity Gap podcast, I am pumped to share this conversation with you. In today's episode we get to learn from Stephanie Ghoston. And so I got connected to Stephanie. Funnily enough, it was, so I was on Instagram, and someone else that I follow. Her name is Matisse Haynes; she is an Atlanta area facilitator and, consultant and founder and wonderful things. I follow this person named Matisse -- love her. And Matisse tagged me in something that had Stephanie in it. And so I started following Stephanie. And that was just a good decision, I'll make sure that there's a link to her profile in the show notes. So I started following Stephanie and I just really, I was just personally so challenged and encouraged. By the way she approaches diversity and inclusion and equity work, especially the ways that she is so dedicated to empowering and, and seeing and championing black women, as I'm a black woman, and so even this conversation itself felt like a coaching session. But even if that's not your identity, even if that's not your perspective, if you know black women, if you have a black woman on your team, a friend, a spouse, listening to this conversation with Stephanie could be really helpful or illuminating, as you're considering how to show up more, more faithfully and more comprehensively, and racial justice and equity work. Um, Stephanie will tell us a little bit about herself, but she's a speaker, facilitator and organizational development consultant, a coach. And as she puts it, she's a recovering lawyer. She brings over 15 years of experience in advancing equity, fostering inclusive leadership and sparking Systems Transformation using both racial justice and healing framework. So she has a wealth of experience a wealth of knowledge, you're going to want to hire her after hearing this conversation. If the coaching she offers is what you're looking for, I don't know it was just really rich, really good. I can't wait to share it. Enjoy. Okay, so, where I begin all of my podcast interviews, is I like to ask people, when did you first become aware of your race or ethnic identity?

Stephanie Ghoston  04:11

Yes, I first became aware when I was I probably was four or five. And my mom would, she had all these like afro-centric things in our household. I remember having like, posters on the wall and framed pictures and artwork of Black women and she also had given me a Black Bible. So that was really cool like to see the characters in the Bible actually be depicted as black characters. For Halloween, I dressed up as the Pora nobody knew who I was, but I was really excited about that. And I think I really like my mom talked about being black and all these things all the time, but it wasn't until I saw a difference that I understood I was like, actually different from other kids, that that transition really happened in first grade, when I was moving from my neighborhood school to a school in the suburbs that was mostly white. So I was seeing the difference between me and my classmates.

Bethaney Wilkinson  05:21

Yeah, do you? How do you think having your mom be so proactive about affirming your racial and ethnic identity? How do you think that's affected? Like your trajectory in life? If at all? 

Stephanie Ghoston  05:36

Yeah, I think it's been everything. Um, I think I had such a good foundation in my blackness. But that was really what I relied on when things weren't going as well at school. And I, of course, got a really great education. But I think I always say, like, I learned a lot, but mostly things that I wasn't supposed to learn, like how racial hierarchies work and how whiteness works. And just looking at the differences in the way that folks who were white or who had money were treated versus folks who weren't white, or who didn't have money. That was really that that contrast, was really stark, actually in all of my education. And so I relied on that I always had a home community that was mostly black, I had a neighborhood community that was mostly black. I was involved in extracurriculars with, with black folks. And so I think it played a really strong part in me, knowing myself and understanding my identity, even when I wasn't reflected in the learning spaces that I was part of.

Bethaney Wilkinson  06:41

That's so powerful. And so I'm wondering, as we switch gears a little bit how that even ties into the work that you do now. And so can you share with me and our listeners, I think I first interacted, I first connected with you through maybe Instagram, like someone alerted me who you are Matisse That's right. And then, and then I heard you on a podcast and some of your work and just hearing more of kind of your frameworks around organizational development and things like that. So can you share with our listeners what you do?

Stephanie Ghoston  07:17

Sure, my work really falls into three buckets, which really reflects my personal philosophy on transformation. I do believe that in order to have like deep rooted long term sustainable transformation, we have to have folks doing their individual work, we have to do work in community and on our cultures, and then we have to look at the institutional piece. And so my the work that I offer mirrors that I work with individuals providing life coaching, usually folks who want to embody being free whole and enough. I also do community work and cultural work, workshops, workshops around healing and community telling the truth and community. And then my institutional work really centers around organizations who want to embed Diversity, Equity and Inclusion principles into their core identities and culture. So not just the surface level, like we kind of want to sprinkle it here and do it there. But really, how do we fundamentally transform our and shift our culture? So that equity and inclusion is the lens through which we see and do everything?

Bethaney Wilkinson  08:30

Oh, that's so I love how there are those three pieces. Can you say what they are, again, individual community and then institutions? Okay, do you find that people are more drawn to one part of the work than the others?

Stephanie Ghoston  08:48

That's a great question. I think, in the organizational context, I think there's a perception that there's no personal work required. Yeah, interesting. Like, people are like, I didn't sign up for this, I don't want to do any, I don't want to change anything about myself. And so on every level, I feel like there are multiple levels of change that we need to be looking at. And most often, I think, organizations try to sit at that policy or program level, they want to look at the external, like, how are we interacting with our community? How are our programs and services give us an equity lens for this thing, when really, the I think the hardest part of the work and maybe the root of some of those issues is the individual manifestation of these systems. And so it's it's funny and also like, very sobering that organizations try to shy away from that personal work, especially when it comes to leadership. They're like, Oh, no, no, no. Like that's for other people to do those vessels, other folks out there across the country or, you know, my terrible neighbor, someone else needs to do some work. It's not me and I the work that I do with organizations definitely encompasses personal work. So that that's, that is what they're signing up for.

Bethaney Wilkinson  10:06

Absolutely, do you? So how do you begin to make that shift for people? Because a lot of the people who I interact with and maybe even some of the people who are listening to this podcast, I think for a variety of reasons there is that focus on the external, maybe on how do we diversify our team? Or our what does our marketing strategy look like? Are there all of these public facing things? And I guess, I don't maybe I'm projecting this is just my opinion, I think because people don't come to work expecting it to be a side of transformation, that this idea that there is personal work involved is a big shift that has to happen for leaders. So I guess my question is, what are some of the things you do or have seen that help people begin to wrap their minds around the fact that it's not just about what's happening out there? But it's actually about what's happening in here inside of me? 

Stephanie Ghoston  10:58

Yeah, um, the work, I think, the beginning, some of the beginning steps is just understanding the connection. And that, for me, came after reading. And I think one of your other guests mentioned this, um, a huge Adrienne Marie brown fan. Yeah, after Yeah. Reading emergent strategy, I was seeing the ways in which all these things are connected. So it's not like there's an external piece that has nothing at all to do with the internal piece, or there's an institutional piece that has nothing at all to do with the personal piece. And she breaks it down really, really well. She talks about this in terms of fractals, like we want to make large scale wholesale change. And it's usually at a large level, like, we want to end racism, which is great. It's like, that's awesome. You want to do the big institutional level change? And what is the smaller piece of that change that you could tackle first. So if we want to end racism on a large scale, we would also have to look at how it manifests on an individual scale, obviously, right? Like, how do we see smaller and smaller pieces of this bigger problem? So we can tackle those, which is actually somewhat, it's easier than trying to end racism everywhere? Like, how can I look at how it manifests in my life, how it impacts me, how I'm perpetuating it. And so I think the very first piece is like getting folks to understand that there's a connection there. And that there's agency and understanding that connection, when I know that my individual actions impact a larger system, then I'm more prone to like be more critical about them. And so I think so yeah. So first step, just understanding that connection. And second step is knowing that and that doesn't change an organizational context. So I think we have this, there's like this belief that, you know, don't bring the personal to the professional. And yet, we do it all the time. Like how you like, you get it? Yeah, I just said, I got into accident last week, like that is impacting how I am now. It when when you have a fight with your partner in the morning, you go to work, you bring that to work, when you make decisions, and you sit down at the decision making table, your past experiences, your biases, what happened yesterday, what happened today impacts how you show up with your coworkers and the decisions that you made. And so that usually gets folks to understand that that's a sign of change that they need to be paying attention to.

Bethaney Wilkinson  13:37

Absolutely, gosh, there are two things in what you just said that really, I mean, a lot of what you just said, sticks out to me. But one, two things. The first being that it's like you're naming a reality that's already there, right? Like the idea that we don't bring who we are to work every day is a myth. The idea like it's not even true, people have been doing that forever, because we're, we're humans, and it's a part of our experience. But the other thing I love about what you said is that it really is empowering. Because when you look at like the any big systemic issue, especially something like racism, we actually the only thing we actually have a degree of control over is ourselves. And that is the stories we tell ourselves and the communities we choose to be a part of, and the way we decide and choose to move in the world. So I love this framework, you're setting up for us because it really is empowering. It takes it takes a solution from being somewhere out there, and it brings it really close to home so that we can engage it more effectively. So do you have any stories of organizations or leaders who have who have begun to do this work and it's and it's happening, like it's working? Things are changing, they're changing? Do you have like a story or two? You could tell?

Stephanie Ghoston  14:53

Yeah, sure. Um, what are my favorite stories and it's ongoing because it's a lifelong journey. both for individuals and for organizations. One of my favorites, though, is a leader who I worked with in Portland. So before moving to Atlanta, I lived in Portland, and was mostly working with Portland based companies and some national companies. And this organization particular, they had a man, it's a corporate culture, they have a mandate from their larger institutional partner to do like 30 minutes, I think of implicit bias training a year. That's it. So they were like, Okay, we want to do a little bit more than that is how can we like step into this work. And they took so much time to form an equity team, it was really about trying to get out of a diverse group of folks who were from diverse stages of the company to so there were VPs in the room, there were entry level, folks, there were people who had been there a long time, there are people who just got hired. And there were folks who super extroverted folks were super introverted, and a racially and gender wise, diverse, as well as considering, like sexual orientation. And so I think the amount of time and energy and effort spent developing that team, that first group of folks who would go through a year long process really set them up for success. And so that first year, even though it was Rocky, there was a small group of folks from various stages of the organization that went through this year long process. And the first part was really about consciousness raising. So six months, six to eight months of like, definitions, frameworks, tools, like relating to each other agreements, just like basic stuff, communication. And the second part of the effort really focused on some of the strategic planning portions. And so they developed some a DI framework, they developed a DI strategic plan, some progress reports, and they were really, really happy with the progress with that they had made, because there were some immediate things that they could take care of, I think I remember they had like, a, they had a pretty offensive and racist Cafe name, like, like a name, and, and logo. And I was like, This is not okay. And they were like, oh, we need to change this right away. So there was some immediate changes. And I think there were some seeds that were planted for long term sustainable change during that year. And the second year working with them, they decided to do some deep dives into particular departments, so deep dives into their HR department. So they're looking at who they're hiring, and how they retaining folks and their performance management. And then they also were doing a deep dive into their marketing and thinking about, like, what are the messages that we're putting out about our community and the folks we serve and about the folks who are here. And so that, for me, has been a really great example of how the work is moving throughout the organization. They've got a long term plan of like, we're gonna we hope to get to all the departments, including our part time staff, they have staff that don't work. You know, as much as the full time folks do so they've got a plan to roll out everything. I think the the thing that I'm most proud of is some of the leadership really doing their own personal work, to see where their biases were showing up. And in particular, I tend to end up coaching, coaching, and I attend in a coaching the black folks and black women in particular, and leadership. And there's one black woman in particular, who I think because of the work that we did over the year, and the second year of deep dive, she's really stepped into her leadership and her potential as a person. And I think, like the impacts of racism and white supremacy, sometimes takes away our ability to like, imagine and to and to actualize our potential, and I've just seen the ways in which he's grown over the two years and like, just naming the truth, talking about her experience, like naming the impact, owning her voice that has been so wonderful to see. And not only has she done her own personal work for that to happen, but the organization has made space for her to which Assad was missing before.

Bethaney Wilkinson  19:30

Wow, wow. Okay, so I love that. I mean, I love that story. And I love that you describe those two things happening together because I think so often, like I me as a black woman who's worked in a lot of majority white majority culture spaces, I've had to go do that work on my own, which then created a lot of friction because my environment wasn't changing. Oh, yeah. But I think it's so Powerful when the environment is changing, and the leaders of color in that environment are empowered and finding their voice, I think that's just like a recipe for all the goodness.

Stephanie Ghoston  20:10

Yeah, yeah. And, and I think when you say all the goodness, that's really on different folks terms, you know, like, it's good for the organization for her to be, like, empowered, and know that she has options. And it's also good for her. I also have worked with people who decide that what's good for them is stepping out, right. And so I always try to, like, I want to center who's most impacted and their definition of success. And sometimes that's look like, it's bad for me to be in this organization. And it's bad for this organization. And I need to step out. And so I love that, that definition of goodness or success, it really depends on the person. And when you have when the individual has the space to do that work. And the institution has made that space, then they can collaborate on that, like, Okay, well, it might be time for me to go, where might be time for me to blow this up. I'm like, Okay, let's do it. Let's, let's get teaching about it. You know, like, we have to have a strategy in place. And yet, you know, if that's what's best for them, it's what's best for the organization that has happened also in the relationships that I've worked with in the past.

Bethaney Wilkinson  21:22

Wow. Okay. So I have another question that I didn't send you ahead of time, because it's coming to mind right now. So I love your thoughts on this. I have a good friend who is a black woman, who is a very strong and brilliant and creative and bold personality. She's wonderful. And, and yet, she's in an organization that doesn't quite know how to appreciate that. And they often feel threatened by her as she actually is. And so, I wonder from your perspective, and I know she she's not on this call, obviously. And it's her own story, her own journey. But, um, I'm wondering, from your perspective, what are some? I don't know, like, not promising practice. I'm trying to think benchmarks like what are some things she can be thinking about, or other women like her can be thinking about to figure out if this environment is a place where she can where she can thrive? Like, what are some questions she can ask herself? Because I imagine I've had to ask myself those questions. And I have other friends who are in that situation. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

Stephanie Ghoston  22:30

Yeah, I think this is a really common situation. And I it brings to mind there's a graphic I don't know, have you seen it? Like the the problem woman of color? Have you seen?

Bethaney Wilkinson  22:39

Yes, I have. Yeah. I can link to it in the show notes. Yeah, yeah.

Stephanie Ghoston  22:44

So there's this graphic, and you're going to link to it. It's really like this organization wants to be more diverse. And they're like, yes, we want this. They want the strong, opinionated, brilliant, like, bring your lived experience. And then she comes, they're super excited. But then she starts naming the truth. And they're like, hold on, hold on. We didn't, we didn't. We didn't ask for that. So then she gets blamed. And then if there's so much harm, and then she eventually leaves, she quits or she's terminated or something. And I've had this happen to friends, to colleagues, to folks who have coached and I've actually coached folks out of these situations, I think the number one thing that I would tell your friend is like, you have options. And again, white supremacy takes away our imagination sometimes. Or it gets us into this like binary like, I either have to like quit in two weeks, or I'm going to stay in indoor. And there's so many things, right?  

Bethaney Wilkinson  23:41

Oh my gosh! Have you been reading my journal?

Stephanie Ghoston  23:47

But it is common. It's so common. And I want folks to know that, like you have options, there's so many things in between. I've helped. I've coached folks through like asking for what they need, protecting their time, taking time away, like working from home negotiating, like, I need to be I need to be out of this office in this environment, at least two days a week, like going to therapy, I need to I need to have paid time to go to therapy. It's part of my work. It's part of me doing my job well. So I think there's all these ways in which black women can protect themselves in those institutions. And they have to make a calculation about how safe it is for them to be there. And I think that's an individual calculation. There are some folks who are like, I'm willing to do this, or I'm willing to not do this. I had a former colleague who worked at a law firm and she strained her hair every day. Like this woman is getting up super early, straightening her beautiful curls. She's damaging her hair, but she felt like that was worth it. And she's on partner track now. So to her that it might be worth it to her. I wouldn't do that. That's yeah, my ministry album, you know, the two strand twist, whatever it is. But I think it's an individual, I think it is an individual calculation. So like, How safe are you at this? Do you have? Are you building like some kind of CO conspirators or ally ship? Even though I hate that I hate that word. But like, are there other people who can vouch for you in the rooms that you're not in? Like, is this organization really committed? Like? And if they're not, then you may need to leave? How do you leverage this position into going into the next one? Is that a title change? Is that a pay bump? And so there are so many options I also saw and I, this just made me think about this. There's a woman in I think she's in the UK. And she helps women, black women in particular, I believe. Think through their options when it comes to like, do you want to sue? Are you going to like file a lawsuit? Do you want to like write a, like, I was gonna say crazy, but like write a very, very direct email. It's not crazy. It's the truth. Whatever you're doing, we can help you strategize. And so I think, just knowing you have options, calculating what's worth it to you, like, Who was your direct supervisor? Are they in your corner is your personal work that they need to do? Just knowing that we can ask for these things? Is there things that are available to us that we just, we haven't had the permission, or we felt like we couldn't ask for. And that's how I would advise your friend.

Bethaney Wilkinson  26:31

Hey, so this, I had to pause because this really hit home with me. The idea that sometimes white supremacy because of what it is and how it functions. I'll post a link to in the show notes. For those of you who aren't familiar with white supremacy, I don't have time to get into it right now, as I'm saying, so I'll post a link so you can learn more about what I'm even referring to, if that's new for you. But I really love how Stephanie points out that white supremacy makes us think we don't have any options. And in my own personality dynamic, and just in some of the spaces that I operate in, I experienced this this to be so true, you begin to feel like you have two bad things to decide between, as opposed to having the imagination and the creativity and the innovation and the the hope really to consider that there are multiple ways that any given scenario can play out. And so I just wanted to pause because if you are in that place where you are looking at a situation, professionally or otherwise, where you feel like you don't have any options. I'm wondering what it might look like to take a step back and, and consider Okay, I can't see all of the options right now. But what would it look like to dream a little bit as it relates to this particular topic? Or area, whether it's in your own leadership, or whether it's in your your organization, even maybe you're thinking of things have always been this way? It's never going to change? If that's true, what are your options in that place? Um, so I just think this is a really good, good, good, good and important invitation. Okay, back to the conversation. Yeah, oh, gosh, I like how you keep grounding. You, I love that you keep reminding me and us that one of the impacts of white supremacy is that it takes away our imagination, and how it does reinforce this lie that we don't have choices and options I that's really sticking out to me. And even just all that vision that you cast and like, oh, just Oh, that was so good. I'm gonna have to go journal after talking to you and then tell you about getting coaching. Yeah.

Stephanie Ghoston  28:43

It's really like, it's about options. It's about knowing it's okay to ask for things. It's okay to say no to set boundaries, like, I'm not going to talk to this person, or I need to set up something where we're not interacting, because you're harming me too much. I think my own personal journey has really helped me in that regard. Because I can model I know that you have options because I know I have options. And I didn't, I didn't always know that and having someone walk me through that. I mean, they're I last year or two years ago, helped a friend go on extended medical leave through their therapist, because their workplace was harming them. That's just not something I would have thought of, and I don't think I know that. Um, but you're they're busy, right? You know, they're a doctor. Long Term Disability, go for it. You can get paid while being out of work. And it really is about centering your own healing, your experience and what you want in need. And just also being okay if they can't provide that. And that's where I want black women to be strategizing like, Okay, I'm going to ask for these four things. If I can't if this institution can't provide it in a timely manner that works for me, that I know Need to exercise my other options? And that's okay, too.

Bethaney Wilkinson  30:03

Yes. Yeah. Thank you for that. So, so good. I'm wondering, when you look at the landscape of DEI, or racial equity work, I know different practitioners kind of tee it up and frame it differently because we're doing different work. When you look at racial equity work more broadly, what excites you the most?

Stephanie Ghoston  30:29

I am so excited that people are starting to do I'm using air quotes, quote, unquote, radical work within the work and I think it's quote unquote, because it actually is it's work that's been done for a very long time. It's work that organizations I think, have resisted in a lot of ways. And the some of the things that I'm talking about, I see a lot of people looking at the healing aspects, right, like looking at the all the different ways that racism, white supremacy impact, impact our bodies, and packed our minds, right. So healing being a central component of their ethnic racial equity work. I love the loop liberatory frameworks that they're using, they're starting to say, Okay, well, there's this thing, there's this a black feminist feminist theory, maybe we should take a look into this. We may we should look at queer politics, like maybe we should do that. Um, I love that that is coming up. I love that some organizations are looking at repair and reparations, I'm thinking of like decolonizing wealth by Edgar Villanueva like foundations, looking at how they've exploited communities of color, like, that is amazing. It's a start, it's a start, which I'm really excited about. I think, like, even looking at some of the new structures of business. There are a start, they're not there. They're not perfect. But I spoke at a B Corp conference. And I was like, oh, okay, so this is a different kind of corporation. That is saying that they're committed to, you know, if they have an impact driven mission, or there's the zebra movement, where there's like this kind of, in in infusion of other principles into typical, you know, traditional corporate structures. And so, that gets me really excited because I think that folks are starting to realize that the ways that we've structured organizations, how we've been thinking about di work, how we've been thinking about anti racist work, how we've been thinking about racial equity, has still really been centered on dominant culture, folks. And so shifting that is really, I just, it's really, really exciting. And it's just a start, because, again, it's not the it's not the beginning of this work. And it certainly isn't the end, it's been going on for a long time. I think it's making a debut in the mainstream more and more as people are like, this isn't working. We were desperate to try something else. And I'm sad that it's come to that. But I also think it's it's a start it really it definitely is a start.

Bethaney Wilkinson  33:06

 Yes, I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. And it's really, it is really exciting. And I'm finding to how many people from even from within dominant culture are hungry for a new way to do the work like hungry. 

Stephanie Ghoston  33:24

It doesn't work for anybody. And I think that's the thing too, it's like, we I think we forget that, you know, racism, white supremacy, homophobia, transfer, like all these systems have an impact on those who are perpetuating them as well. Like, there are some benefits and some privileges that they enjoy. And it's it's a fundamentally dehumanizing process. It is a disconnecting process, why folks disconnected from their emotions from their bodies, like disconnected from other humans, it's not actually going well for anybody except for a very, very few people at the top. And so I just love, I love that. folks don't realize that. The other part is just made me think of too is like, I think about the brilliance in the resilience of communities who have done so much with so little. And I And part of what gets me excited is like if we start to pour into these folks, if they start to be empowered and actualize their potential, if they start to get the resources that they've been denied for so long, I'm excited about the possibilities of that, too. If you could do this while being burned out and not being seen or valued, what would happen if we'd like sintered you and the impact to you? That would be so cool. So that's exciting.

Bethaney Wilkinson  34:48

Oh, yeah. So what do you hope the organizational cultures of the future will be like?

Stephanie Ghoston  34:57

Yeah, I think I think we will. I'm just name, I'm gonna name it, it's going to happen. Yeah. Existence, I think we'll see a fundamental restructuring of how organizations function, I think we will see a different configuration of leaders like I'm not as invested in like, the staff needs to be diverse, like I'm looking to have power, pull home power, and who's valued in an organization who centered when we think about programming and policy, both internal and external. So I'm, I think we will see a shift in that configuration of leaders, which will then in turn, at least a better connection, better communication and better solutions, like all those, like the business case, like will be actualized. And realize, and I think that, like you said, how we're operating now is not actually helping a lot of people, most people. And so if we can come from a different place, I think that will have workspaces and work cultures that work for more people more, I think we'll see different kinds of structures, I think we'll continue to see some of the B corpse, some of the zebras, I think we'll see even more radical structures. And I think those will be in the mainstream, I do believe those will become I don't want to say dominant culture, I think those will become the norm, more so rather than, like a very hierarchical power held in a very few, very few hands. And I think that will I think that will reverberate throughout our country. And we'll start to see the ways in which we need to do that internationally, how we relate to other countries and other and foreign entities. I think it will I think it will have a global impact.

Bethaney Wilkinson  36:43

Wow, yes. Oh, you're the vision. I mean, I just think it's so it's so good. And so helpful to have you cast a vision for where we could be and for where we're going, because I think in my, in my own leadership, that's a gap. I'm like, Oh, I can see everything that's not working, I can feel it. I can even name it. I can write you a 500 word essay on the problem. But I struggle sometimes to have that degree of clarity that you just gave to say, here's where we're going, here's what this will look like. And here's the work we need to do to get there. That's just that's a game changer.

Stephanie Ghoston  37:23

Yeah, there's a I can't, of course, I'm going to butcher this quote. And I will have to go look for it after this. But there's some I can't even remember who said it. But it's something like resisting something is still actualizing it like when we are resisting? Like we're saying this doesn't work. This doesn't work, we're still upholding that thing. And so like, how can we operate on a on a fundamentally different level, like, if we're talking about abolishing police instead of, you know, reforming the justice system like we will have to, we are getting rid of and creating something new, and focusing on that creation instead of like, all the ways that we need to change the old thing, we need something fundamentally different.

Bethaney Wilkinson  38:07

Yeah. Gosh, if you find that, quote, send it to me.

Stephanie Ghoston  38:13

Right now, where was that resisting? Something is like, Yeah, I'll have to.

Bethaney Wilkinson  38:22

So my last question for you. And this is where I land the plane with every person, my whole project that diversity got project, I'm exploring the gap between our good intentions for diversity, equity and inclusion, and the impact of those intentions. So what actually happens in real relationships on real teams and real people's lives? And so I love to hear, from your perspective, what is the diversity gap? And what will it take to close it?

Stephanie Ghoston  38:49

Yeah, I'm gonna repeat myself a little bit here. Because I actually think, I think focusing on the intentions is like, kind of a waste of time. Because we can all assume good intentions, like you're human, you most folks are not coming from a malicious place, even a conscious, even a conscious place. And so even I think one we could just say, well, let's just focus on the impact and let's move from there. I don't even really need to hear about the intentions. It just can't pay my bills. It can't erase the heart like it. I don't see a lot of use for it. Except Except to actually stall the real conversation. But I think part of the gap is really stepping into that personal work. Seeing that like yes, we have to look at policies but policies are made by people. Like yes, we have to look at culture but culture is made up of people and people bring their whole lives have experienced the bias that they've experienced, the the racism that they are perpetuating or internalizing we bring all of that to the decision making table, we bring that to our behaviors, it causes us to behave in various ways towards ourselves and other folks. And so I think the personal work is part of the gap that we need to close. And I think the other piece is really about power. Like, if even if we can, quote unquote, diversify the staff and you know, get more folks of color, like make that make the make the configuration look different. If the people who hold power does not fundamentally change, we will continue to have the same outcomes, because we have the same folks making those policies. So even if we're focusing on equity, and we're trying to close those gaps and get people what they need. The people with BIAs are still making those decisions. So I think the key is really, who holds power in an organization, and who is most impacted. And if we can close the gap between those two, I've done like one of my colleagues introduced me to like this power impact analysis. And it's like most for most most organizations, the people who hold the most power are the least negatively impacted, right, so you can plot like high power, low impact, high impact, low power, if we can shift that. I think we could, I think we can really, really make a difference.

Bethaney Wilkinson  41:22

Yeah. Oh, gosh. That's so good. Stephanie, thank you so much for your time for the work that you do. For the dots you've been able to connect even in this short conversation. I'm just so excited about what you do. How can people follow you keep up with you hire you? Can you tell us? Tell us the things? Yes.

Stephanie Ghoston  41:44

All the things social media, I'm on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook at Cultivated Sense. So it's like common sense, but we're cultivating it. So let's see you c u l t i v a t e d sense s e n s e s e n s e. My website is just my name: stephanieghoston.com, g h o s t o n. You can find me on LinkedIn. Sometimes I'm on there. And just send me an email. I'll respond. I'm actually really excited to. I have a I have my own podcast coming out soon. Yeah. For that, and I'll be sharing some of my insights from organizational development culture that I've done some really interesting stories. So you're somewhere those guys, good, bad and everything in between. and So be on the lookout for that and just hit me up on social media.

Bethaney Wilkinson  42:41

Awesome, very cool. Thank you. I'll make sure to link to all that in the show notes too. Awesome. Thank you for listening to The Diversity Gap podcast. If you've been challenged or inspired by what you've heard, please rate and review the show. You can also subscribe to make sure you never miss an episode. If you have thoughts or questions, I love to hear from you connect with me at thediversitygap.com or on Instagram at The Diversity Gap. This episode was produced by DJ opdiggy for Soul Graffiti Productions