Choosing Racial Literacy with Priya Vulchi and Winona Guo
Episode Summary: In this episode of The Diversity Gap Podcast, Bethaney talks to Priya Vulchi and Winona Guo, Authors and Founders of Choose.Org. As leaders of a nonprofit they created as sophomores in high school, Priya and Winona are passionate about racial literacy and about exploring race, culture, and intersectionality. In this conversation, we discuss racial literacy, why it matters, and the new lessons Priya and Winona are learning in their studies at Princeton and Harvard.
Priya and Winona are co-authors of “Tell Me Who You Are: Sharing Our Stories of Race, Culture, and Identity.
Episode Notes: Choose - Racial Literacy for Every American
Transcript
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
literacy, people, racial, race, gap, stories, book, identity, impacted, intersectionality, life, priya, educators, grew, conversations, schools, developing, traumas, winona, hear
SPEAKERS
Bethaney Wilkinson, Priya Vulchi, Winona Guo
Bethaney Wilkinson 00:00
How comfortable are you with talking about race? Like, really think about it? In your normal conversations with your friends, co workers, family members, how comfortable are you? If you're anything like me, there are some people it's really easy for me to talk about race with. And then in other conversations, it's really intimidating. Do I know all the right words? Is my language too complicated? too simple. Am I up to speed on the relevant terms? Am I going to be shamed for saying the wrong thing? All of these tensions are normal. It helps me to step back and remember that we are all on a journey. And each of us will have missteps and will make mistakes. What's important is that we keep showing up and that we keep doing our part to increase our understanding of race, racial identity, racial justice work, and the unique role each of us plays and at all. Welcome to The Diversity Gap podcast where we are exploring the gap between good intentions and good impact as it relates to diversity, equity and inclusion. My name is Bethaney Wilkinson and I am your host. Hey there and welcome to another episode of The Diversity Gap Podcast. Today I get to share with you a conversation I have with Priya Vulchi and Winona Guo, y'all these two humans are so inspiring. They founded an organization called Choose in 2014, when they were sophomores in high school, and I really love how they describe their reasoning here. On their website. It says, we started shoes in 2014, because we weren't talking about race. At the same time, we realize that every part of our daily lives from our neighborhoods to our friend groups are shaped by racial division. And so Priya and Winona they started shoes, and 2014. And they didn't stop there. After starting this organization. They went on a journey to collect countless stories about race, culture, and identity, all of which were ultimately published in a book called Tell Me Who You Are. I purchased this book last summer and loved every bit of it. It is not only incredibly well designed, which I appreciate. But it's full of stories, statistics and the systematic reality of race to help readers understand how individual stories fit into the bigger picture. And so I highly recommend the book. I so enjoyed this conversation and the chance to learn from Priya and Winona, as they are on the forefront of educating communities about the importance of racial literacy. So listen in, take notes. Also, quick disclaimer, we had some technical difficulties in getting this recording. And so hopefully, you'll be able to listen to it with ease. But if you hear some funky sounds, just know that we did the best we could and we're really excited to bring this conversation to you. So I would love to hear from you all. And either one of you can take this one. But what is racial literacy? And why is it important?
Priya Vulchi 03:17
In high school, we grew up in the state of New Jersey and financial literacy is a requirement. And we grew up learning all these other kinds of literacies, like mathematical literacy, technological literacy, English literacy. And to US racial literacy is the same fundamental ability to be able to think talk and act on race. And the way that we thought to do it in high school was through pairing personal stories to systematic research, to bridge what we call the heart mind gap, a racial literacy.
Bethaney Wilkinson 03:50
Okay. And so, I love that. Can you say the three things again, you said think talking act? Okay. That's so practical for you went on a Why do you think this is important?
Winona Guo 04:04
You know, he and I are both the children of immigrants. And I think for people of any identity, but for us particularly salient Lee, we saw the divides growing up in our predominantly white town and back home, with our families, this racial and cultural gap that I think has shaped our lives, you know, since we were born since as early as we could remember, right? And the idea that this was such a fundamental part of our experience these things like race and culture, impacting our lives, but us never ever been equipped with the language, the tools to understand that experience. And so many young people across the country going through that same experience that to me that feels deeply unfair, and that feels unjust in a way that can be fixed, right? We can change our education systems such that we do a better job of understanding who we are and how we win. This world in such a fundamental way as understanding racial literacy,
Bethaney Wilkinson 05:04
I love how so when I was when I was reading your book, and just in the beginning in the introduction, I love how you referenced how our ideas about race, like how they begin to form and we're really young, like three, four years old. And yet, like you've been speaking to, that's a gap in our education system. And so I'm wondering, I, when I think about people in my context, especially those who are parents, I think one of the ideas is that if we don't talk about race, it'll kind of like disappear, which we know from history that that's not true. But I'd love to hear from one or both of you. Why do you think? I don't know, I guess, why do you think parents are so or people who are educating children in general, why do you think there's this resistance to engaging something that we know to be so important and relevant to our existence as people?
Winona Guo 05:51
I mean, I think I think people would love if it were true that kids were, you know, colorblind, or that racism didn't affect our communities, because that would mean that, you know, we don't have to deal anymore with this huge problem that is race in the United States. And I think there is this resistance because it's embedded into every part of our lives. Since we were very young, whether it be the doors we look at, or the color of the bandaids or the ways our neighborhoods are divided, or friend groups, or our curriculum and our classes, or who were taught by or what books were reading, what we see on the TV, what narratives were being fed from our friends and our family, there's just every part of our life overwhelmingly is shaped by this history of white supremacy in the United States, and to confront, you know, the ability of benefiting or or being implicated in those systems is that is a massive task to grapple with. And I think people are resistant to that, because of the difficulty of it.
Priya Vulchi 06:55
I also think that, like we get a lot of parents, for example, telling us that they read expertise from tell me who you are to their kids as bedtime stories, in addition to adults in companies using the book as training for employees. And so I think that this idea of racial literacy being fundamental 21st century life skill that anyone from young people to adults who are all on this journey, and continuing this journey need to be engaging with is not properly addressed in our schools, which then translates to the humans that we graduate into the world. Right. So I think your question about why parents might be finding it difficult to talk about race with kids, especially white parents, to kids who you're white, maybe race doesn't seem relevant to you. I think that problem stems from the lack of education around race and racial literacy, starting in our classrooms. Mm hmm. So are
Bethaney Wilkinson 08:03
you I'm, I'm curious to hear what are y'all studying in school? And is it tied to education? Is it building on your work with choose and tell me who you are? Or is it completely different? That question wasn't on my list. But I'm curious,
Priya Vulchi 08:16
a huge joy of during the 50 states traveling and interviewing so many people was seeing how so many people with various skill sets, who are passionate about so many different things are able to integrate racial literacy into the work that they do and to witness how necessary and critical that is for like, our whole society to function, right for doctors to be thinking about racial literacy, in how they're treating their patients and artists to be painting through their evolution and people in all different areas of life. So coming to college, that's something we definitely understood, which is that no matter what our passion, we would find a way to integrate racial literacy and apply a racial literacy lens, to whatever we're doing. So we did a lot of exploration during our first year, I am majoring in African American Studies and getting certificates in journalism and environmental studies. However, both of us again are interested in so many things and are excited to apply racial literacy to all that we do.
Winona Guo 09:20
Yeah, I'm studying a social studies at Harvard, which is a mix of of government, sociology, anthropology and economics and taking a lot of classes as well as an African American Studies department in the Educational Studies department. But as Priya said, something that I found surprising coming to school, or at least a gap with the curricular opportunities now all of a sudden available to me to study these topics. A gap that I found is, even though I have all these peers taking classes in African American Studies, or sociology or history, right, so many of the conversations about race remain the same, like in the first two weeks of school You're at college, I heard multiple non black students using the Edward Wright. I went to Cambridge Public Library for the first time. And a white man looked me up and down and said Niihau, I was in so many circles where people would come up and look around and be unconscious of how they look to right over the girls of color in the circle, the feeling of invisibility there. And then, of course, missing gaps, even in the curriculum and elsewhere. There's, for example, on campus, a lot of students right now at Harvard protesting for ethnic studies in the hiring of more faculty of color and higher education. And if ethnic studies were offered at Harvard, I would 100% be majoring in it right now. And so I think the persistence of these topics of race, even beyond high school, and we first started this project is very much always on our minds. And so whatever we end up studying and even beyond the classroom, whatever we end up doing in our lives, it will for sure be shaped by this racial literacy lens that we've been privileged to cultivate in part through choose.
Bethaney Wilkinson 11:06
Guys. Yeah, that's so rich. And I I love how, in Priya, how you set this up to to say like, we believe racial literacy, this lens can be applied to every industry, like there's no place where this isn't this work isn't relevant. I think that's just really I'm hoping that for listeners that that's like an invitation to go deeper, like, No, this applies to what you're doing in your office, if you're an engineer, if you are an entrepreneur, if you are a mom, like this applies to what you're doing and how you're leading. I'm wondering, so I have two questions. And I'll get to both of them. My first one is, what is choose and the introduction? Like, I'll tell people, you're the authors of the book, but can you share what choose is and why you created this platform, specifically? And what are some of the things you're working on
Winona Guo 11:51
the course yeah, chooses a nonprofit working to equip every American with racial literacy. The means through which we want to do that is through requiring racial literacy education in our K through 12. school systems in the United States, as well as hopefully contributing to the wealth of scholarship on this subject and resources available to educators by creating tools to teach ratio literacy, using the heart mind gap, a model that we've developed.
Priya Vulchi 12:25
So right now we have tell me who you are, the book captures our journey through all 50 states and interviews, reason intersectionality stories pair to start out and All proceeds go to the nonprofit which in turn is creating more tools right now specifically for educators through our educator fellowship, or choose champions, educator fellowship, and essentially, that group is filled with around 35 educators from across the country teaching in K through 12, all subject areas. So to the point that we were discussing earlier about how racial literacy needs to be applied to all areas of our life, because race ultimately impacts everything. We have educators who are biology, teachers, statistics, teachers, art teachers, physical education teachers, in addition to teachers, specifically focusing on racial literacy, and sociology. All of them have been working throughout this school year together in collaboration, creating developing testing unit and lesson plans. So this is going to be put together into kind of curricula booklet, which will be available for free for educators to use by the end of the year. And so we as nonprofit want to keep creating these tools for companies for schools for different spaces and areas of life to better equip themselves and these spaces with racial literacy.
Bethaney Wilkinson 13:59
It's so good, I can't wait to see all of that be available. I know that it will be just super helpful to a lot of educators and leaders and I can't wait to check it out, too. I'm curious for each of you, how is your sense of your own racial and ethnic identity changed or grown over the course of leading this project?
Winona Guo 14:19
I think one of the really beautiful things about shoes and our our mission of racial literacy for me is that it's very much reflected in our own personal journey, not just as choose leaders, but as people are grappling with these subjects. I think, to be honest, when we were sophomores in high school, when we first started choose, we had had very few conversations about race, or both our parents have never brought the word race at home, in part due to the content as well in which they grew up. As we said earlier in our schools, the love our teachers had ever mentioned that racism to our memory. I had never mentioned that racism was on Going contemporary problem. And so, when we first started this project, we had never thought even about the question How has race impacted our lives? And starting in that year from sophomore year 2015 Till now we've heard probably over 1000 or 2000, people tell us their stories answering this question, how has race impacted your life, and that's completely transformed the way that I at least understand who I am, for example, in middle school or high school having never reflected on my Chinese identity, Chinese American identity and the ways in which I might have internalized practices of whiteness that were even implicit in my life, you know, things like not having a sense of honesty with who I was an internalized sense of hatred for my culture, or a sense of inferiority to, for example, white woman, in my classes, those things that previously I would have never put language to being able to identify those things to unlearn them, and then to act upon it. I think, that has totally transformed my life in a way that now I cannot be more I cannot find my Chinese American identity, my ritual, my ethnic identity, all of that, and the associated lineages and histories and stories and community cannot find it more important to me.
Bethaney Wilkinson 16:27
What about you, Priya?
Priya Vulchi 16:28
On my first also, just to clarify, I think that we grew up never having these conversations explicitly, and therefore never having the chance to grow in our confidence and our sense of self worth because without talking about race, like Winona said, we both had internalized a lot of notions of inferiority. However, the almost funny part is that our parents, ourselves, like race is impacted, as we've been saying everything and every part of our lives. So while my parents would casually talk about how my mom and I were once called terrorists in a grocery store parking lot, or one of my earliest memories is getting skin bleaching products as a birthday gift. And these things would be talked about and as if they were normal, right. And we didn't have the language to place onto these experiences, and also to classify them as not normal but as racism, and that this didn't have to be what was normal. And so I think through the process of developing the tools that we did, or nonprofit, we also were developing this sense of racial literacy that allowed us to dismantle a lot of the white supremacy that we just took for granted. And I also think that it's important to say that we're still on this journey of racial literacy, racial literacy doesn't have like a finite destination. And it's not like when we published our first kind of pilot booklet, when we were 16. That's when we finally achieved literacy know, since then, each iteration of the tools that we've been creating shows how the two of us as people and as authors, and as co founders of our nonprofit have been learning and growing as well.
Winona Guo 18:15
I would just add one more thing in regards to our racial identity is reflecting on privilege, I think, to think about one's privilege and positionality in in racial systems in the United States is incredibly important. And to be East Asian, for example, there are a whole host of privileges like straight hair, or light skin, for both of us to be able bodied such that we could, you know, travel to all 50 states to live in New Jersey and in Princeton, where we had access to so many resources to fundraise and have mentors to have, you know, teachers and administrators who believed that we were smart and capable of doing a project like this, all of those associated privileges, I think, is something that we have thought very much about and continue to think about in regards to our identity.
Priya Vulchi 19:04
Right. And both of those things, thinking about our positionality the ways that race has touched us in terms of the different traumas we have, but also the different privileges we hold. Both of those things contributed in developing our sense of identity, and worth and realizing that we can finally do something with our privileges other than just remain silent on them or apathetic towards them, or wielding them in an unhealthy or unjust way. Right. So that's also something we're still learning in terms of, for example, growing up in a town like Princeton, where we have access to so many resources, financial intellectual, and realizing that we can leverage those and weaponize those almost to create something, which was ultimately the racial literacy tools that we ended up making, right. So that's a huge part of racial literacy being conscious about and reflecting on our privileges in addition to the traumas, But we may have experienced
Bethaney Wilkinson 20:01
Yeah, in putting those two things like next to each other to like both the traumas and the privileges of your unique positionality. It sounds a lot to me like talking about intersectionality, which I think is a very helpful term and idea for people like to think through okay, how do I in these ways I'm experiencing privilege in these ways I'm experiencing oppression? or marginalization, can you share a story and I think you've already shared some stories, maybe one from your book, where just the reality of intersectionality was super profound or evident or clear to you. I was just curious to hear if anything stuck out as it relates to that particular idea.
Priya Vulchi 20:43
There's a whole chapter that is dedicated to exploring the topic. And every single story in the book is rich with intersectional identities, as we all are to as humans. However, one story that comes to mind was when we were interviewing in Tahlequah, Oklahoma, and we interviewed a person named a yoga and their name is a yoga slash Nikki in the book as well. And a yoga we drove out pretty far to a university campus. And yoga is one of the youngest Cherokee speakers alive, is in charge of her local, Catholic student, body organization, correct, Winona, and also trans. And, yeah, so there was just a whole fabric of intersectional identities that yoga had practice articulating, and showing and sharing in terms of how they each impacted her life. And it was really fascinating and also impactful in terms of giving language to her own lived experience that stuck with us, and that we shared in the book.
Winona Guo 21:53
And not to say that they're listing you know, these different parts of her identity, and then seeing the associated ways in which each one individually impacts her life. But to see it all as a web, right, like an example of that with a yoga is in the Cherokee language, she was telling us, there are no words for gender. And so you wouldn't say like, is doing something or she is, is doing something the doing would refer to the same word. And so in that case, you could see how there's this intersection between her Cherokee identity and linguistic capability, and then also with her trans identity. And so all these examples of it intersecting I think something that is really important to talk about with intersectionality is that I think is not talked about enough is the ways in which it was developed heavily by black feminist thinkers. Throughout history. It's often credited to Kimberly Crenshaw, for developing the concept, but there's a whole lineage of black feminist thinkers who have written and spoken and thought about this subject. And in the introduction to chapter three, which is all about intersectionality. In our book, we talk about going to Montgomery and meeting with Butler Browder, whose mother was a rally of router and a figure in the civil rights movement. And he asked us this question, like, he was like, the average, you know, person can't name one woman, other than Rosa Parks who made a difference in the civil rights movement, right? And he asked us, can you, and then he proceeded to tell us the stories from the civil rights movement of Earl Browder and Joanne Robinson, and people whose names have been forgotten these black female thinkers throughout history in ways that I think is reflective of this larger invisibility of that history and that lineage in these conversations about intersectionality.
Priya Vulchi 23:44
I just want to add that I think often when we think of intersectionality like Winona said, it can kind of end up in this oppression Olympics situation or not acknowledging how in any given space, all of these identities are constantly in play. And I think about how when we bring in Denver, Colorado, we interviewed this woman named Molina and she talked about how, as a white woman, her and her partner who's a white man, and whenever she talks to him about, she started whenever she explains to him, how she experiences misogyny, that is her gift to him because she might have to be reliving some trauma and and going through things that are emotionally exhausting. However, whenever she is talking about race, it is her responsibility, right? Because as a white woman, she wants some distance between her and maybe any trauma that she's experienced. And so doing that is more of a responsibility than a gift and I I think there's so many ways in which are inhumane, and the stories and tell me who you are Highland and give insight to how each individual is grappling with their intersectional identities. I think that once we begin to reflect on how our many identities shape the different ways in which we think talk and act, as I said earlier, that's when we begin to understand the structures better and how we can dismantle the unjust, injust and unhealthy ones.
Bethaney Wilkinson 25:20
Gosh, so I'm wondering as you like, step back. And because you've done a lot, you've talked to tons of people, you are both steeped in educational settings, where you're learning and thinking and wrestling with ideas of race and racial literacy and an equity all the time. And then you're also creating these resources for other people who want to improve their practice. I'm wondering as you look to the future of your work and leadership in this space, specifically, what gaps Do you see like what conversations do you wish people were having? Where Where do you see it going next, if you haven't given voice to that already,
Winona Guo 25:58
The first gap that comes to mind is, you know, the gap that that we built the nonprofit off of the heart mind gap, which we discuss in a TED talk that we have online as well. And this idea that to be racially literate, we both need to develop this fierce sense of compassion, and commitment and care in our hearts for the most vulnerable for the most invisible, the most hated in our society, we need to have that kind of internal fire within us or the commitment to this equity work. That is the heart gap. And then we also need intellectual understanding a sociological and historical toolkit of the ways in which race has impacted every part of our lives and the world on many dimensions from the internalized to the interpersonal, to the institutional, to the systematic. And I think when we talk about race, whether it be in our schools, or in our conversations too often, it only addresses one of those, right? Like we, for example, share the stories that are incredibly necessary and powerful, though, one may be left feeling as though that were an isolated incident, right, that somebody experienced something, but it's not necessarily part of that just somebody's heart, but that's not connected to this understanding that there are a whole system's built around this that impacts so many people in very similar ways that is that is deeply unfair to understand the systems or the other hand, in our schools, for example, we both remember getting these textbooks where yes, you know, Jim Crow is discussed. Yes, yes, the Civil War is discussed, yes, slavery is discussed, sometimes, you know, Japanese internment camps are discussed, sometimes the history of indigenous peoples and, and genocide in this country is discussed. And yet all of that is framed in this, you know, this intellectual, first of all outdated, you know, and historically, you know, inaccurate context, often, but also in this way that feels full of facts and numbers and, and is still in a way that can't access the human heart to so deeply care about the people who have these issues are affecting. And so when we think about racial literacy, and this model that we have reflected in the book, and that we hope to integrate into classrooms everywhere, we hope that pairing stories to statistics will help bridge some of that gap. Of course, there's there's many gaps, right? That's just the first thing that came to mind. Brianna, you wanted to add anything?
Priya Vulchi 28:31
Yeah, I think another one is just this idea of relevance. For many of us. There's racism in arguably and very clearly, from like, our earliest memories, very relevant to our lives. But I think that as we get older, and also depending on your own racial identity, it can feel or begin to feel not relevant and not urgent. And so there's this quote by sociologists, Robyn D'Angelo, specifically speaking to white people, saying that your inaction will still uphold the very systems that we live in. So in other words, your silence, as an organization, as a company, as an individual, still speaks volumes. And I think getting people to understand that race is relevant to everyone every part of your life. And not only that, but no matter what your skill set is, you don't just have to be a sociologist. You don't just have to be involved or call yourself an activist, but everyone needs to be leveraging their own skills, and needs to be equipping themselves with racial literacy, which means yes, the vocabulary and the intellectual aspect of it, but also the tools to take action and everybody no matter what you're doing, play a role. So I would say another gap is is ever trying to work on as a nonprofit is making sure that everyone feels the urgency and the need to do something right now.
Bethaney Wilkinson 30:14
Yeah, gosh, that's so good. So good. I think that's just such a good challenge. And I love that I wrote that down when you said your, your silence speaks volumes. I think for a lot of organizations that are in my sphere there, there is so much because of the lack of racial literacy, there's a lack of competence for some people, but then also confidence that they can engage conversations on race in a way that that is constructive. And I was talking to someone earlier today about how for a lot of people who have like an expert status in their industry, having to go back to square one can feel very vulnerable, like to have to start the beginning, because you haven't been practicing racial literacy for a long time. All of that to say, I love that challenge that's like, well, even if you're at the beginning, then start you know, like, because not engaging, is a problem. And, and that perpetuates the very issues we say that we want to address. And so that's just so such a good a good challenge to all of us to figure out what our best next steps are. I'm wondering as kind of my last question. So this entire project, that diversity gap, my goal is to help people think about what it looks like to to close the gap between their good intentions for quote unquote, diversity, and the actual impact that they're having in the world as it relates to race and equity and justice and diversity. And so I'm wondering, from each of you, if you were to give one thing that listeners could literally do tomorrow, to begin closing the heart and mind gap, what would that be?
Priya Vulchi 31:48
Our book? Yeah. But I mean, this book did come out of our like organic need for something to close the heart mind gap. And I think that it functions not only as an educational resource for schools, genuinely as individual reading, it's under, in bookshelves under General nonfiction. So I think picking that up and realizing that it's not an impossible task, but just like, again, any other kind of literacy, there's, there's a way to start. And there's a way to develop the skill and get good at it so that you are able to contribute. I think that's a great place to start. And the only other thing I would add is that tell me who you are. The reason why we went from creating a textbook from stories tour, in our local hometown to a book for everyone to read stories from all 50 states is that we wanted to have people open up a page in the book and see a story have a greater chance of seeing the story that they relate to whether that's through geography, or through their many identities. And I think that, of course, the book doesn't capture every single identity out there, or every single place in the United States. However, using that as a place to start and going further to first beginning with your own local history and your own self, so understanding yourself and then moving to what is the history of race and the contemporary events around race in my hometown, and building out from yourself to your community to the world.
Winona Guo 33:21
To that point for you even look going on Google right now and typing and you know, like, whose land Am I on and geographical location, or thinking, how we grew up not even knowing that I'm enslaved people were once sold in our own town square. And so to that local history and being involved at a local level, I think that's so important. To answer your question, Bethany, I think actually, my answer would be relates to something that you said earlier, which I think is humility, because I think that the gap between intention and impact is dependent on looking beyond yourself, right, and listening to others, understanding a perspective perspective that, that you can access, how your behaviors or actions impact the lives of other people beyond yourself. And I think this this culture that we have of, of wokeness is so dangerous, in part because we start to believe that if we're not sleeping, you know, we're already fully awake. And, you know, to feel like we already are fully awake that we already know all there is to know about race or racial literacy or other stories that is so dangerous and speaking for both myself and both. I know we both feel so so excited every day when we're constantly learning new things related to this topic and will be for the rest of our lives in ways that don't just show up in, in our reading in our classrooms. Also in how we hope to interact with other people and center other people, other people stories and listening to others experiences in our life. And so I think, I think for, for people as a starting point to realize that racial literacy is the journey that never ends, and that there's more that every person listening can, can do to better understand the world in which we live in and how much structured by these systems, I think that'd be a great place to start.
Bethaney Wilkinson 35:23
Such a good place to land the plane. Thanks so much for your time. Thanks for your work. And for just going for it you know, like, you have an idea for how to solve this problem in the world and you're building so many resources and you're leading the way and I just I'm really grateful to learn from both of you. So thanks. If you want to keep learning from these to check out their work at www.chooseorg.org. You can find a link to this in the show notes. You can also follow them on Instagram and buy their book. Thanks for listening. Thank you for listening to The Diversity Gap podcast. If you've been challenged or inspired by what you've heard, please rate and review the show. You can also subscribe to make sure you never miss an episode. If you have thoughts or questions I'd love to hear from you connect with me at thediversitygap.com or on Instagram at The Diversity Gap. The Diversity Gap podcast is recorded on Muskogee Creek land in Atlanta, Georgia. This episode was produced by Matt Olin for Soul Graffiti Productions.