Buffalo, Progress, and Grappling with Hopeless Peace w/ Sean Watkins

In this episode, Host Bethaney Wilkinson interviews Sean Watkins, the Director of Training and Strategy at Be The Bridge, a faith-based nonprofit that exists to empower people and culture toward racial healing, equity, and reconciliation. In this conversation, they process the tragic anti-black, racist incident in Buffalo, NY. They also discuss the rich and emergent diversity present in Black identity, the importance of history, and of the ongoing tensions between progress and hopeless peace.

About Sean:

Born and raised in Houston, Texas, Sean came to the University of Texas at Austin for his education but found Jesus and a lifelong passion for ethnical and cultural diversity. He holds a Bachelor of Arts in African-American Studies and History, a Masters of Divinity, and is a PhD student in Intercultural Studies at Fuller Seminary. He is the Director of Training and Strategy at Be the Bridge, a faith-based nonprofit that exists to empower people and culture toward racial healing, equity, and reconciliation. When he’s not reading and speaking, he is an avid superhero and science fiction fan and enjoys working out, watching movies, hanging out with friends, and martial arts as he holds a first-degree Black Sash in Tai Chi. For more information, check out his blog: www.smwatkins.com or follow him on Twitter and Instagram: @seanisfearless.

About The Diversity Gap:

The Diversity Gap is a coaching and facilitation practice for racial conscious leaders and team. Learn more and find DEI support at www.thediversitygap.com or @thediversitygap on Instagram and LinkedIn.

Shownotes:

Be the Bridge https://bethebridge.com

Access the Show Transcript: https://www.thediversitygap.com/podcast

Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, life, black, conversation, diversity, realities, america, thinking, lead, question, organizations, history, folks, book, reconciliation, work, bridge, check, told, church

SPEAKERS

Bethaney Wilkinson, Sean Watkins

Bethaney Wilkinson  00:00

Hi, this is Bethany Wilkinson. Welcome to the diversity gap podcast the home of race conscious leadership. Hello, hello, welcome to another episode of the diversity gap podcast. I am so thrilled that you are here and I'm really looking forward to sharing today's conversation with you. Earlier this week, I had the privilege of interviewing Sean Watkins, who is the Director of Training and strategy at be the bridge, a faith based nonprofit that exists to empower people and culture toward racial healing, equity, and reconciliation. I have followed the work of be the bridge for many years now. And what I love about their work is that they are relentless in their truth telling, as well as in their loving and powerful invitations for us as individuals and as organizations to play our part in closing diversity gaps. And in addressing the many racial and justices of our time they do it with such passion and such conviction with such deep roots and a faith tradition and in community. Their work is just incredibly rich. And so it was such an honor to learn from shine in, in today's conversation now, before I share the conversation, I do want to share a quick announcement, which is that for those of you who are looking for seasons one and two of the diversity gap podcast, you'll find that they're not live in the feed on whatever player you're looking for, or whatever player you're using, you'll have to visit WWW dot the diversity gap.com backslash podcast. And when you go to that page, you'll be able to access all of the archived season one and season two episodes. So if you're looking for those, I just want to put a plug in here to say, hey, they're on the internet, still, you just have to go to the diversity gap website to access them. There are also transcripts available there for you. So if you're looking for the old episodes, that's where you can check them out. Now back to the conversation we're having today. I know that we are coming off of a week really of processing a tremendous amount of pain and disappointment and heartache and loss. I'm specifically talking about the incident of anti black racist terror that happened in Buffalo, which if you haven't heard about which I'm sure you have, but if you haven't heard about its, I'm not going to get into the details here because I'm not a journalist. And I don't feel qualified to explain it from that point of view. But in my own process, it has been really important and helpful for me to make sense of this incident in the context of community. And so my conversation with Sean today was just such a gift because he and I were able to talk about what it has meant for us to move forward as to black people in the United States, who are also, you know, leading in diversity, equity, racial justice work, we just spent some time processing that and making sense of what it means for us as individuals and how we're moving forward. In this conversation. We talk about a lot of other really beautiful and important things as well. And so I hope that you are able to find a little negative encouragement, of direction of inspiration in this conversation. I may say this every week, but it really was one of my favorite interviews today. And so I again hope that you are able to find something that really supports your your journey in this conversation between me and Shawn. And I also hope that you are moving with such gentleness and care for yourself and those around you. We are living through really difficult painful times. And I don't want to diminish that in any way while also inviting us to find our footing and our power in the context of our relationships with one another. So without further ado, I hope that you enjoy this conversation between me and Sean Watkins. So Sean Watkins, welcome to the diversity gap podcast and we were just talking about how we're doing that. I'll ask again, how are you today?

Sean Watkins  04:26

Hi, Bethany, it is good to finally see you face to face and just over email correspondence to meet and to be here. I am truly humbled and honored, I think for the opportunity to be able to talk about this incredible resource and the work that both of us are doing and both of our organizations are doing in the country. Overall I'm doing well. I was telling a friend of mine today feels very weird because one we're going to the podcast episode together. And then I will start teaching a class at Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary this Wednesday called Christianity and the problem of racism. And so it feels weird. To be in the midst of those two realities, as we're coming off of buffalo this past weekend, that in the midst of doing this work, as you know, working with organizations, just as we do it be the bridge and trying to both move people and culture, I think towards being aware of these realities that even in the midst of doing the work and feeling like you know, we're having some fruitful conversations, we're seeing organizations shift and change that we can still have an 18 year old young man, go to Buffalo and go to predominant black neighborhood and, you know, take the lives of 10 black people in the country. And so it just, it feels weird. It's in the juxtaposition of like, parallel in progress, right? We're making so much progress in some ways. But there's still a lot of parallel happening in the country. So I think just kind of living in those two tensions as we get ready to start the conversation and topic for today. So how about you? How are you doing as you come in?

Bethaney Wilkinson  05:46

Yes. Oh, gosh, thanks for asking, you know, you really took us right in to the heart of how I'm feeling. And how I'm showing up today. I was literally, I had the privilege yesterday of interviewing my, one of my great uncles about life and the state of race in America. He's in his, in his 70s. And he's from South Georgia. And we were just talking about community connection and race in America. And he was saying, from his perspective, he feels like this time is harder and more difficult than the movement he grew up in. And that really frustrated me. But it was also an invitation for me to be honest about the amount of grief I was carrying. Yeah, and, and so I spent a good bit of yesterday, just feeling really sad, and, and feeling that tension, like I'm working day in and day out with organizations and leaders and people who are making these incredible and beautiful strides towards more equity, and towards confronting racism. And then, in an instant, I can feel like what am I doing, this is a waste of time, I'm gonna go garden and not talk to anyone about race ever again. And so, um, so yeah, that's how I am. I'm showing up today feeling all of those things. And, and yeah, I did clear my schedule this morning. So it was really open, which I needed that space before before our conversation. And so, yeah, that's where I'm at today.

Sean Watkins  07:15

I overstand. I agree wholeheartedly. Absolutely.

Bethaney Wilkinson  07:19

Well, I'd love for you, in this vein, to kind of orient me and even our listeners to who you are the work you do. And then I will probably have more questions about that as you unpack who you are and what you do. But yeah, tell us a little bit about you and your work.

Sean Watkins  07:33

Sure, absolutely be glad to I'll give you the professional version, and then I'll give you the the unfiltered version. So professionally, I'm the Director of Training and strategy be the bridge faith based nonprofit started by Latasha Morrison, author of book of the same name be the bridge. And so in being overtraining strategy, I'm the I'm over our training team and the primary trainer that we have to work with organizations, and churches, again, similar to you in terms of faith based or non faith based, for profit, nonprofit. And we really want to move people on culture on this journey to embracing the principles of racial healing racial equity, and racial reconciliation. And so spent a number of days, weeks hours all the time really is kind of committed to both learning about that field, and then producing resources, I think, to help develop folks in that field. I've got a bachelor's in African American studies in history from the University of Texas, I've got a Master's of divinity, with a concentration in cultural ethics from Fuller Seminary, and I'm a PhD student. And they're in a Cultural Studies Program, also at Fuller, and I'm studying the intersectionality of African American culture, faith and ethics. That's a long way of being able to say slavery ended in 1865 246 years, when we hit 246 years of freedom. It'll be 2111. And so the further we get away from being in bondage, and the black diaspora begins to emerge in the United States with all the racial turmoil that you and I were just talking about, what are our core values? What are our ethics? Are they very much the same? Or are they shifting? And I think a case can be made that they are shifting in the country, but what are they shifting to? And so I'm very curious about that. I spent 12 years working as a college pastor with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. And so I kind of was on staff with them and let them issue for black students at UT and oversaw ministry to black college students in Texas, Arkansas, and Oklahoma. And I was a part of the mass exodus of that white evangelical space when the 45th president came down the escalator and made all of his remarks. And so in that process, I realized the things that were important to me as a college student, and the things that were important when I was a campus minister, they have fundamentally shifted in the last 10 to 15 years. And so, if that's the case, you know, I think we hear a lot of the conversations coming out of church in seminary that we've lost a generation and I don't think that we've lost them. I think that they need something specifically that the church fundamentally does not see doesn't recognize that some of our institutions don't seem to recognize and so I'm curious about what Those are because we need their voices, we will pass the mantle of leadership to them. And if we cannot build a bridge in between those two generations, which is going to have some gaps in terms of ethics, theology, faith, leadership, and all of those things, so that's me professionally off the record. What I always tell people is, uh, yeah, dad was a lawyer, mom was a teacher. And I'm the product of both of them for their second marriage, that's an alcoholic and never been in recovery. And he had an affair. When I was a kid, and parents divorced, we moved in with my grandmother in the hood. And my mom just didn't have a whole lot of family support. And it was the 80s. I'm 39. I'll be 40 in October. And she started using drugs when I was five. And so the whole crack epidemic that hit the black community in the 80s hit my house. And so she was on drugs from the time I was five until the time I was 30. And so my foundational years kind of growing up really was two very well educated parents, again, dad's a lawyer, your mom's a teacher with a master's degree, they both are very well educated. And I felt like they gave me upper middle class black family values. But the context were those that lived out was the hood. And so that was kind of my introduction to diversity and culture. Because, you know, you have all of these rules that, you know, if you come from a cell specific socio economic background, or status, they're all these rules that apply in the suburbs. And when you get to the hood, that stuff does not work, you know, run stop signs, there are no rolling stops in the suburbs, you stop at every red light. In third ward in Houston, Texas, if you have certain lights, you have to run or you will be robbed. You have, you can't you can't go to the gas station to a certain point in time. And so for me, that was the beginnings of oh, there's okay. So culture depends a lot on location. And so it just, it became a kind of a decoder ring for me. And I got to college and found some Afro American Studies courses, and my faith took off. And I realized the need to contextualize the things that I was learning. And it just, it shaped the course of my life. And I have been doing that ever since. So it is a long preambles in my life. But that's that's kind of me in a nutshell. So

Bethaney Wilkinson  12:05

I appreciate you breaking that down. Because there is such richness. And I do find that for people who do this sort of work, you know, we're training or coaching, we're developing resources, it often comes from a very deep, personal place where we were asking questions when we were very small. And like, Why is the world like this? And how did it get this way? And my part in it, and how those questions really do inform how we show up to this work. And the lack of those questions also informs why some people aren't participating.

Sean Watkins  12:36

Actually factual work. Yeah, no,

Bethaney Wilkinson  12:38

Yeah, yeah. So you said so many things that I'm curious about. But I want to first I guess, to take me into you were saying that, as you know, we're getting further away from bondage, African American black communities, we have the space to define our values, if that's how you said it. And I'd love to hear more about that. Like, What's your thinking on that? I, we talk a lot about values here on the diversity gap podcast, mostly in the organizational context. But given the diversity of black identity in US society, I'm just curious, you know, what comes to mind for you?

Sean Watkins  13:18

Yeah, it's an excellent, excellent question. I am wrestling with that and trying to unpack those things myself, I think. There's a theologian professor named Dr. Cole Ellis, who's a professor of African American church history and theology at Redeemer Theological Seminary, if I'm not mistaken, it lives in Tennessee, and it's just a mentor, and a good friend of mine. And I remember probably, it was around 2014 or 2015, shortly after Michael Brown had been killed. And so we're having a conversation at a conference. And he began to talk about what he called these cultural core concerns of African Americans and, and a broader emphasis that'll take up too much time in the podcast. But essentially, we talked about just kind of the reality is that we all have these concerns. And they are the basis for our ethics for our theology. You know, some of us have the bare necessities food, water, shelter clothing. In the United States, we believe folks should have access to clean drinking water to a quality education. If you call the police, they should show up and save your life and not take your life if you call them for help, different things like that. But when it comes to specific ethnic groups, each of us have different cultural core concerns that when you speak to those, you will get our attention. And so what Dr. Ellis argues is that those cultural or consensual black people our dignity, identity and significance, dignity that were made in God's image, were not three fifths of a person. And so as a consequence, our lives are infinitely valuable, not more valuable than anybody else's, but infinitely valuable dignity than an identity, that black is beautiful. It is a culture and that to talk about diversity, reconciliation, inclusion, does not mean that we have to check our blackness at the door. That does not mean that I have to assimilate to the dominant culture. As a matter of fact, you know, he says, for black folks and for Latin X, folks, everybody else can melt in that melting pot. But for black and brown folks, we don't melt, we burn. And we see that reality when it comes to the attempts to have black culture and Latin X culture assimilate. And then the last thing really is significance that for African American theology and Christians, our frameworks revolve around the Exodus and the exile. What does it mean that we are descendants of enslaved peoples? And then also what does it mean they were strangers in the land that we've called home for the last few 100 years. And so he's a man that was educated in the 60s and started thinking theologically 70s 80s 90s own up until today. And while he's brilliant, and we tease him about him, he's in the third or fourth quarter of his life, don't drop kick me back, jealous, you know, I love you. So, but he's in a different age and stage of his life. And so I think, you know, precisely to your point, be 60 years ago to be black in America, just that it meant the descendants of slaves today, it means a number of things we've got black folks that transcend race are Oprah's shag Jay Z and the Queen herself, Beyonce. We've got people who live in abject poverty, we've got people who are biracial, who are second and third generation African immigrants. And we've got upper middle class black people that they're doing well for themselves. They've got the picket fence, the nice house, the two cars, if they both lose their jobs in two years, they can very easily be poor, again, because we don't have that equity in our families. And so black is changed without question. I think in the United States. I also think, if you look at, let's say, it's 2022. Right now, let's go back 21 years to 2001. If somebody was born in 2001, they got here when 911 happened. They saw Barack Obama become president, they saw Donald Trump become president. They've seen the Black Lives Matter movement, they've seen me too, they've seen same sex marriage become illegal. They have seen a frequency of not just unarmed shootings of African Americans, they've seen shootings in schools, they seem to separate children from their parents at the borders for California, and Texas, and Mexico, all these social issues that should happen once in a generation. They've seen all of them in the last 21 years. And so I think when we talk about what does it mean to recruit, retain and promote African Americans on our jobs? What does it mean to have black people coming into our churches in our institutions? I don't think we can simply say you're made in God's image Black is beautiful, and that y'all are descendants of slaves, or sometimes considered strangers in your own land, we've got to talk about patriarchy, we've got to talk about sexism, we've got to talk about Christian hegemony. The fact that, you know, Christians are similar, evangelical Christians, in particular, believe that they should have the dominant decision making power, kind of all the realities that you talked about in the book, what exactly are we going to be liberated from, I think this generation, they have come on the scene and they are allergic to the racism, the patriarchy, the end decisiveness that exists in too many of our institutions, whether they are Christian or secular. And they are saying, if you cannot address these issues, and come up with solutions to the systemic and structural problems, we want nothing to do with you, your businesses, your wisdom and your resources, you just repeating the same systems and cycles of brokenness, and they want no part of it. And so I'm just curious about that. There's this generation that I think Dr. King said about once every 50 years, God brings just a prophet, a generation on the earth that are like, throw everything away the baby, the bathwater in the house, burn it all down, we'll start over, right. And so I'm like, Hey, before you burn it down. One, I'm still here, I'm in that house. But also, why are they saying those things? What is it that we need to learn from them? How can we help them we need their energy, they need our wisdom. And so I'm just curious about that. I don't have the answers for it. But that's the that's the whiteboard in front of me, we can all feel it, I think is Gen Z continues to grow up every single day. They are challenging us in ways in which I think we have to pay attention to if we're going to lead and lead well.

Bethaney Wilkinson  18:59

You walking through all of the things that Gen Z has lived through, like in the time, because I was I don't know, I was probably 1110 or 11 When 911 happened. Um, I haven't that I just haven't thought about it like that. Like this is a lot that we have lived through. So a lot. Yeah, there's a lot that we have lived through. And it is really tricky to slow down enough to help people make space to understand it. And I'm in saying that I'm thinking about executive leadership teams and boards of directors who, yeah, they've seen a lot of what's going on, but because of where they're at in their position, or how long they've been doing it, they have a bit of security, despite the world seeming like it's falling apart or the world actually falling apart. And, and I wonder if you see this when you're working with institutions, it's yes, there's resistance, but there's also just this lack of capacity to make room for the amount of complete complexity. that's in the room. Um, so we want to talk about diversity. But we don't want to talk about the realities that Gen Z moment that we're facing. And and it just I see this lack of capacity, and it's something that I'm trying to solve for my own work. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Sean Watkins  20:16

Whew, good night. That is that is a, that's a conference thing right there. When he's in town to go and unpack that when I see it all the time, I think in organizations, you know, the reality is, I think when we do this work, the majority of organizations that come to us are majority white. And I think it'd be the bridge because, again, some of y'all, we got some faith based components that I think are a part of the work that we do, we have a lot of predominately white churches that are coming to us as well, too. And the overwhelming majority of like, 99% of them are teachable, like they are legit, curious, they want to grow in these areas. The capacity is not there, I think the awareness is not there, as well to these institutions, these leaders, if you will, pastors, the people joining these organizations and companies, my heart breaks for them in some ways, because you realize that they were prepared to lead in a world that never existed. They were never taught or trained to have eyes to see and ears to hear the rich tapestry that exists in the United States of America, we know that whiteness is considered to be universal and normative. And so they have spent their entire lives not thinking about crossing cultures not having teachers of a different ethnic or cultural background, not having a supervisor of an ethnic and cultural background. And so how they approach time decision making communication, all of the things that the BiPAP community almost intrinsically instinctively knows, because we live our lives in perpetual displacement. And we've known this from day one, you know, a black mama, a black parent tells you what happens when you leave this house, if you see law enforcement, we have been taught to code switch. And so we've got some executive leaders that have been successful. They have, you know, been in leadership for 30 or 40 years, they've made six figures, seven figures, they've got houses all over the country, they have multiple degrees. But he's prepared them for a world that doesn't exist. And so now as they're thinking about legacy, and they're getting ready to retire, and we're like, Yeah, you didn't, you didn't do anything with diversity, they it fundamentally, there isn't a capacity and awareness, it's an entirely different frame of reference for them. And so it's very difficult for folks to be able to recognize that I always coach people to be able to practice displacement, like the first thing you need to be able to do, go to a black church and sit there go to a Spanish speaking church and sit there to go, we do mission trips all the time. No, no, no, they know you're coming. They know how much money you have, they're going to be nice to you. Because it's America. And they know if you get upset, you'll take your donations with you stay there for a year, I coach people I'm like, stay in a place long enough to where the power and influence that you have cannot affect a change or a decision that needs to take place in their company or in that church. And when you're there long enough and you are powerless to effect change, then you will know what displacement is like then. So I tend to find that when they are not leading in the room, and they're not dominating the conversation. And when they have to practice humility, then that tends to open up a little bit of the capacity for them. There's also something about think you talked about in the book row, which I really appreciate, too. It's just the realities of embodiment. I think it very much is a cerebral task for a lot of our executives right now. And so intellectually, they're still thinking about it. And that's an idol of, I think, a Eurocentric and a patriarchal society, this idol of intellectualism that we can think our way out of the solution. Now, these are psychologists, and I think what you talked about in your book is should the body keep score, and I forgotten the author's name, but it's a phenomenal book, and they just talked about the realities of you are a whole person. And so you have to pay attention to what's going on in your body as also what's going on in your mind as well, too. And so, I think because folks lived such a compartmentalized life, and they had been educated to do that. As a consequence, that capacity just isn't as high. And so I, I tried to lead with again, that realities of you've been prepared for a world that doesn't exist. And that can be challenging for folks in some ways, but I do it on purpose, because then the invitation is, if you want to lead in the 21st century, this is a non negotiable, you will have to listen to women of color, you will have to follow women of color, you will have to follow people of color, you have to change how you think about leadership, you can choose to not do that. But the demographics have already shown the demographics have already shown. We're going to be a majority minority country in our lifetime. And so the question becomes if your leadership will be obsolete, or if you will be a part you can ride the wave as it is coming because it is coming.

Bethaney Wilkinson  24:40

Oh, so so good. That embodiment piece is interesting. This morning, I was in my garden with my husband and there's this I planted this pot of these flowers, all these seeds have just dropped them in the pot, and they've all come up and they need to be separated into separate pots so that they can flourish. And we were walking through the garden looking at checkout and everything and I was like oh yeah, I'm gonna move those around. Thinking about moving those and he looked at me he said, if you think about it, it's never gonna happen. You need to do. Wow. Don't be rude this morning to my garden walk. But, yes, wait for the coffee, please. But it was it was so true. So you can't think about it, you have to do it. And so even hearing what you're saying and you know mirroring back to me the content about embodiment in my book. It's so true. It's like you think about it to a point, which I think is because, you know, there's probably fear in there some perfectionism in there the thinking that if you can check it off in your box, intellectually, or in your brain intellectually, then you'll be done. But it really does come down to how what you're doing with your body, where you're physically going, and the words you're actually saying and tending to the anxiety and the stories that you feel in your gut. And that makes your shoulders get tense, like it really is so much self management and self redirection, in order to create the kinds of cultures we say we want in our organizational lives. And so leaders who are listening thinking about that. For you, Shawn, I want to ask you a little bit about history. And I know that you studied history and and that you are you preparing a teacher workshop, then imagine you'll have some history context. And I wonder, just how do you bring history into the room in a way that feels salient for people in a way that doesn't incline them to check it off? I learned about slavery in my fourth grade classroom, whatever it might be, I'm wondering what that looks like for you as you continue in your training training work with be the bridge?

Sean Watkins  26:41

Yeah, again, it's that's an excellent question. I'm definitely thinking about it. I've got the seminary class, I'm already teaching Gordon Conwell, which starts this Wednesday, we'll look at we'll go through its seven weeks, we'll look at a biblical understanding of diversity lead to is I'm calling it decolonizing Christian history, not demolishing the decolonizing it, we'll look at it did. We'll look at indigenous theology, Black Theology, Latin X theology, Asian theology. And then week seven is well, where do we go from here? And so you're absolutely right. I think history is a huge component of it. I tell one joke about it. And then I tell one serious point about and so I'll give you both in terms of the joke. I always say the same thing. I'm from Houston, Texas, born and raised. And during the summer, she had to stay at my grandmother's house and that was back in the 80s. And so I had to watch prices right Young and the Restless All My Children, One Life to Live Days of Our Lives in general hospital like it was a non negotiable. I thought Victor Newman was a real person on young and the restless. I thought he was alive. I wanted to work for him. I didn't know that I brought the solid perfume like I was just like I was I was on the train. And I remember I was 12 years old. And Nick Newman went upstairs. He was 10. On the show at the time, Nicola had a headache, and he went upstairs to take a nap. And like the dramatic music was playing, it's a Friday, 10 year old Nick Newman goes upstairs to take a nap. Monday, when he came downstairs. He was 26 years old. He had a beard and he was dating Sharon. And I remember being very confused. And I told my grandmother, I was like, No, Nick is a boy, this is a man, because Nick was the only person on the show that I was older than and you know, they had redcon the character, they had a narrative story that they wanted to be able to tell about Nick Newman, and they couldn't tell it if he was a boy. So they read condom and turned him into a man. And it happens in our entertainment all the time. I'm a massive, massive superhero nerd proud of it, wrap it till the day I die. Superman could not originally fly, he's able to leap tall buildings in a single bound, he can jump. Captain America wasn't originally frozen in ice, they retconned these characters in the superhero stories. Again, we do an entertainment all the time. And that's fine. It's not okay when it happens in American history. And if you have been educated in the United States of America, myself included, we all have been given a retconned version of history, we have been given a version of history to fit the narrative that needed to be told about American exceptionalism. And so the difficult work that all of us have to do is to go back and ask, we need a reckoning as Oprah Winfrey says when she talks about Bryan Stevenson's work with the Equal Justice Initiative in the lynching Memorial, we need a reckoning we need truth telling to be an integral part of this work. And so that's one of the first principles that I tell people it's like, I'm not, we're not telling you lies. The whole notion that you know, critical race theory is destroying the country or all these different things. We can have a philosophical conversation about that. But one of the clear components of that is let's just tell the truth about what happened. You don't have to agree with it. We don't have to like it. Let's just tell the truth about what happened from all of these different ethnic groups. The Navajo have the same, we trust our memory better than your history, because they know American history is not accurate. It's not right. It's not true. And so I think that's One part of it right? It's the the reclaiming the history that's been retconned and change and done away with. The other thing really is when we study reconciliation, philosophy, reconciliation theology, you cannot have conflicting narratives in a society and have reconciliation, we can have different points of view. And different perspectives. For example, Bethany, if you and I are, I don't know, in an intersection and our cars collide, we can both get out of the car and hey, are you okay? Whatever the whole nine. If my sister was in the car with me, that's two different perspectives from my car, your husband's in the car with you. That's two different perspectives. We've got four perspectives, merry Christmas, happy Hanukkah. But if you and I get out of our cars, I'm like, Why did you hit me? You ran your stop sign. You're like, Sean, you t boned me. We have conflicting narratives on what just happened, call the insurance adjusters, they got to do an investigation. And in America, we have conflicting narratives on how we got here, who we are as a nation and who we actually want to be. And until we change that, it's just going to be a difficult journey. So I challenge people in that, in order to be able to know what exactly is going on, you have to know history, you have to know that we weren't given the full picture of what's taking place in the country, and the energy and passion, the defensiveness that people have about defending this version of America that they've been taught. You have to recognize that the conflicting narrative is not based in truth. And so in order for us to move forward, we have to have some truth telling and we have to accept the truth that has been told to all of us.

Bethaney Wilkinson  31:29

So tricky. It's one of those things that someone could have told me years ago, truth telling is important. And I would think yes, of course. But now seeing how much people are willing to not only lie, but to erase to finish, like factual history, not even opinions. But is it's like, wow, stories are powerful. Like we derive so much of our sense of self power place in the world, through the stories we tell ourselves about who we are. And I don't think I knew just how true that was until last couple of years, people. Yeah, we have a lot of work to do. Yeah, we did.

Sean Watkins  32:08

Absolutely. I was telling somebody else to I think it was probably about three or four years ago, like the whole flat earth theory came back out again, Kerry Ervin, an NBA player, if you don't know him, for the listeners, and you know, he's just like all he was back on the flat earth train the whole nine and renowned astrophysicist Dr. Neil deGrasse, Tyson was being interviewed. And they were like, you work at NASA. You're brilliant. You're always doing these, you know, scientific facts on tick tock, and everywhere else. What do you think about the flat earth theory? And he said something that was water on my black soul. He said, I don't debate facts. He said, we can have a philosophical discussion about ideas and opinions on things. But what is historically data supported, scientifically proven facts, I don't debate those. And it shifted in my mind how I approach these conversations, we have a vetting form that we do and be the bridge, there are organizations that we fundamentally will not work with, like the starting point has to be racism exists, white supremacy is in the DNA of America. And we want to learn how to dismantle it, if they're starting processes, convinced me of these things convinced me that what you're saying is actually the history convince me that racism exists, we aren't the organization for you, I am not the leader for you. Or if I can be petty, at a comma, I'm going to charge you a lot more money. Because that's, that's just not our job, I think to be able to convince people of the truth, like you were saying, there's just, I think, for our own self care, and for our longevity, as leaders in this work, we've got to be able to have some boundaries that says if if you're at a stage in which you don't believe the truth, that that that's a different stage of life, that I can't help you in that we have to start with the truth if we're going to go anywhere. Mm hmm.

Bethaney Wilkinson  33:56

Absolutely. I similarly in my vetting process, and I don't always I don't have it's just me, little me and my team have facilitators. And so my process isn't that intense. But in conversation with potential partners, it is always that question of, hey, look, are you do you already know there's a problem and you're trying to solve it? Or are you waiting for someone to teach you about the problem because I'm not I'm I can't do that. I couldn't, but I'm not going to. Because I have boundaries, and I value myself and my time too much. But if you know that you have a problem. Racism is real. You want to do something about it, then then let's talk we will find the case that works for you, we will determine what success looks like for you. But there does have to be that baseline of I've done my own work. I see the problem. I just am ready to level up and I need support. And I find also for di practitioners who are listening to this episode. I was thinking about this this morning. I was trying to play out I don't know if you ever do this as a as you're working with organizations. But sometimes I find myself playing out conversations with people in my head

Sean Watkins  35:00

All the time.

Bethaney Wilkinson  35:01

Exactly like I'm trying to play out the whole thing. So I can think about it strategically and you know, figure out how to help people learn how to help people understand the problem. And I was thinking about this one potential client and their demographics. It's an all white team. Older, they're an older generation than me. And so just in a different place than I am, and then our peers probably are. And I found myself in my mind going down this rabbit trail, about CRT about about critical race theory in history. And I just had to check myself as like Bethany, you are over functioning. This is not your work to do a this isn't a partner that you have yet be this isn't your identity. And see, you aren't in the business of convincing people the problem. And I really had to have that conversation with myself. Before I proceeded to spend another hour ruminating on how to convince this person of a problem, I know that they aren't yet ready to grapple with

Sean Watkins  35:53

Exactly. Yeah, no boundaries is real. And precisely what you said to you. It's a slippery slope, like we don't even realize it. You can, you know, have a vetting form, you can have an initial conversation with them. And as you begin to replay the conversations, the body language in those zoom meetings, right, you're like, oh, wait, that rubbed them the wrong way. So let me know. Okay, so that's where they are on their journey. Now, how do I convince No, no, that's not my job. Like, you know, I think Dr. Brittney Cooper, she said, your desire to learn does not produce any desire to educate. And what I have seen from black women in particular, who are leading and doing this work across the board, but then bipoc, and I think are the leader, the elders of our communities, all of them, they very much have a firm boundary, you have got to do some work. And you have got to be working, you cannot be at a standstill expecting, I think people of color doing the work to carry you into the next chapter in season of your life. You've got to be willing to do the work. And so there's a gentleman that a gentleman, he just became the CLO would be the breeze. So as I've called him that he's my boss, now, we just got promotion, but a guy named Micah Smith. And so we, we kind of like, we parade Michael around, really, he's an introvert and drives him nuts sometimes, but we were really, really, really proud of him, like his wife, and he's from Tennessee, and Miko story is just very powerful. He played at General Robert lead, and the reenactments for the Civil War, when he was younger, for his bachelor's and his master's, he wrote as a as a thesis that slavery was not the cause of the Civil War, just very like, drenched in conservative political and theological ideologies without question. And so but Mike is what changed my kid's life was when Eric Garner was killed. And Micah said, you know, he believed in a black white binary in terms of ethics and government, but you break the law, you go to jail, and it's and people aren't killed. And Micah said, I saw a man be choked to death on camera for selling single cigarettes. This fundamentally didn't make sense. It didn't fit his worldview and his framework for how the world was to operate. And like I said, I realized everybody in my life that I was talking to about this was white. And so he did what we asked everyone to do in this work, he became autodidactic, he became self taught. And man went on Google, he found some books. He went on YouTube, and he just started learning, stumbled upon Tasha and be the bridge wanted to be the bridge group changed, his life continued to grow was active in our Facebook group, we got him to start writing some of our whiteness education content, because we want to have white people helping to educate other white people just because of the racial dynamics in the country. And Mike is has grown tremendously again, he's now the Chief Operating Officer and be the bridge because of his own journey. And we tell Mike a story often because precisely what you said, it's not our job to convince you that racism is real. Something changing like that said, I have to what is it? Jim Collins, the 21? Nope. John Maxwell 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership, the law of the lid, you don't know what you don't know. And so Mike made a decision to say, there's a lot that I don't know about this world and about this work. And he took it upon himself to learn those things. I think when we've got people that are teachable, you know this as well as I do, it just makes our jobs easier. But if I have to come in and try to convince you of these realities, if it's the What about isms, I am, God bless your heart and all parts. Here's a number of books to read, here's some podcasts listen to holiday in five years. As you can't do it. So you got to be able to know and I think about that, too, is I'm turning 40 This year is like I'm what do I want to invest my time and my energy? What's my own legacy that I'm thinking about? And so I want to pour into people that see the problem that want to change personally, they want their organizations and their churches to change. They want the world to be a better place for their kids and their grandkids that invigorates me so that that I want to commit my life to

Bethaney Wilkinson  39:58

Beautiful, beautiful Well as we land the plane here, I have a couple of questions left.

Sean Watkins  40:05

I'll be good. I won't be as long winded. I told you, oh, no,

Bethaney Wilkinson  40:09

You are perfect. I'm just really enjoying learning from you. And I could probably talk to you all day, this has been really rich. I want to know how you are moving through and processing in as much as you want to share. You don't don't feel the need to like, pour out all the things in your journal. If you journal I journal you have to in this work is you have to be self reflective. But how are you moving through and processing the events of I guess last week last weekend? What happened in Buffalo?

Sean Watkins  40:41

Yeah, that's a that's an excellent question. I'm, honestly, I'm numb. I think that's I have been in full transparency since Philando. Castile and Alton Sterling were killed in the same day in 2016. That was the last time that I watched the video of a shooting. That was the last time that I followed the news reports, read all of the articles. A good friend of mine, she said like, you know, I think up until that point for us. We saw those things, and we didn't get over but we were able to move past it. But having those two killed in the same day, it was just sticky. It just stuck with us. It named the reality of what it meant to be a person of color in America, that all of the the misnomers the lies and deceptions, the half truths. All of the talking points they just kind of they were they were muted at that point. It's like this is the country is racist. It's we change the laws, the hearts of the people have been changed by people are expendable the end. And so I think looking at Buffalo, it's it's painful. I was a college pastor for 12 years. And so in some respects, I'm like, this kid is 18. Like I No disrespect to anybody 18 Nobody is smart at 18. What do we know, we know nothing. You are immortal. You can eat a Snickers for lunch and be fine. We know nothing at 18 There are very few people at 18 that have a good head on their shoulders. And so I that old adage of like, you know, what monster got to him first that turned him into that. I you know, I believe that the college age 18 to 21, or 22 is a pivotal time in your life that if we can have a conversation with you then and give you some principles to help change the course of your life, you'll be better throughout that. So broke my heart about Trayvon Martin he was 17. And so we've got this 18 year old kid that is killed 10 People his life is over. Like there's there's no recovery from that there can be redemption for him. But there is no recovery from that he will spend the rest of his life in jail. And so that hurts. I think as a pastor, I think as a black man living in America, it's terrifying. No place is safe. We can't go to grocery stores, we can't go to amusement parks, we can't go to church. We can't be home, we don't have a little bit sleep in our bed. And so it's just that visceral reminder that I just I don't feel safe in spaces in places. And so I'm walking lightly this week. My radar is at 110%. I'm checking my surroundings at all times. I live in Texas and we are tripping down here. So it's just it's unnerving. I say so now I'll pass it back. It's what pops up in my mind is because I wanted to believe part of what she said. And I'm still wrestling with it. When they decided or they decide to be a non indictment for Darren Wilson personally killed. Michael Brown, the police officer where they killed Michael Brown. I remember they did they might announce it right before Thanksgiving. And I drove home to Houston. And I my friends, we were all upset. We were trying to figure out what protest we were going to see what were we going to write about? How are we going to change our leadership styles. And I got home and my mom who at that time was turning 70. She's 77 now but she was in the kitchen. And she was just smiling and peaceful. And I had not seen a smiling black person. In three days since I didn't know and diamond had come back. And I remember asking my mom about it and just was like, You're in a good mood. I haven't seen a black person be in a good mood since this happened. And she just looked at me very calmly and said, Shawn, I'll be 70 next month, I have forgotten the names of all of the unarmed black people killed in this country. You were young and you still have hope. I know what it means to be black in America. This never stops. And I have to tell people that my mom had so much hopeless peace. She did not have any hope that the country was going to change. But there was a piece that she had, that I wrestled with, because I want I need to have hope that America can change that people can change. It's why we do this work. But I am not at peace at what's happening in the country. And so it's weird to live in that juxtapose position. And I don't want to say that my mother was right. But I understand what she's saying. These things are not stopping. It doesn't matter how many books we read how much we lead and what's going on, there is a fundamental problem that exists within the dominant culture of the United States of America. And they need to have a candid conversation with each other about what it means to live on Earth with the rest of us. And so I feel that tension. Because I, I want to walk outside and check my mail and not be horrified if I see a neighbor, I want to be able to wave and say good morning to people and not worry if that person is a white supremacist, or that person thinks then I'm an other, and therefore I'm a danger to their family. So it's, it's all of these notions in the midst of that. But then, as you know, we have to bracket all of that and be professionals, because there are teachable white people out there that want to learn and grow. And so we have to embody the hope and the change that we want to see. So it's, I'm living in the tension of those realities. So how about you?

Bethaney Wilkinson  46:02

Oh, good question. I really resonate with what you was about your mother said, even coming off of the conversation I had with my great uncle yesterday. Yeah. I didn't have language for it. But that's what he was carrying as well, a hopeless piece. Yeah. And a little bit, he saw a little bit of outrage, personality. But, but very much a hopeless piece. And I, and I think that is that speaks to not exactly where I am. But I'm in the tension of that, because I per maybe perhaps similar to you, I was actually really, I was involved in inner varsity as a student when I was in college. Yes. And so that might be a whole other conversation here in Georgia, so I'm very familiar with university, but then also being a college student and believing you can change the world and being a part of like, these incredible organizations and these missions and all of these different things. And so to be in my early 30s now and to realize, oh, wow, I don't think world change happens, like I thought it did. It's not quite like my asset based community development notebook told me it would be. It's not the it's not the 10 steps of writing reconciliation from that first book I read it's, it is something else entirely. And I don't know what it means for me to be a black woman in the midst of all of this, a black woman in a rural southern community. I have no idea. And I'm just taking it a day at a time.

Sean Watkins  47:39

Yeah, yeah, that's so real. There's no university and you're in Georgia to I got questions. I'm like I bet I know your homework. I mean, your stat workers is a is a gentleman in Atlanta, his name, we call him Bishop, but he Tony Warner, he's one of the early blacks, half of the university and similar conversation, shootings are going on all of us, you know, blacks, and we are hottest fisheries and ready to protest in March and burn everything down. And if we go over every table in, Bishop was in his 70s, just sitting there drinking his coffee, just cool and calm and collected. You're not mad. He's like, of course, I'm mad. He said, Shawn, all y'all have been taught wrong. He said, You had been taught that you can change the world completely in your lifetime, that you plus Jesus even go out and 10 steps like he said, and solve all those problems. And he said, we forget Israel waited 400 years from Moses. And he said, we very few of us have the opportunity to see God change the world from zero to 10. And he said, we have to realize and your generation will learn your job is to move folks from zero to one, or from one to 1.5, or two to four. But that's it's very few of us to get the opportunity to see a complete and dramatic change. You know, folks waited for slavery, and folks waited for the Civil Rights Act, folks waited for separate but equal to become unconstitutional. And so he said that, and I've just I've held it in my heart because you know, there is this hope that we have to have in doing this work. But you know, I think when we look in Scripture as well to the scriptures are true, there are people that waited, I think for all these tremendous things to happen that they didn't see in their lifetime, the next generation side or two generations later. And so I'm trying to my favorite skit, from Mad TV, lowered expectations. I'm trying to have lowered expectations about what's happening in the country, where are we going? And what's the like, you know, as I look back over my life, my own legacy, what would be the win for me, because I think like you I'm like, I'm joining this work. America is gonna not be racist by the time I retire. That was that was too lofty of a goal. Okay. I want to help people in this generation discover the realities of what lives in a multi ethnic and multicultural community, whoever God would give me influence. Merry Christmas. Let's do that. All right. So it's hard so because All right, yeah.

Bethaney Wilkinson  50:01

Wow. Well, thank you so much, John, I just, I'm just really inspired by you and grateful for you. And thank you for this time and for being part of this conversation, I am sure that it's going to be a gift to the listeners. And it's been a real gift to me.

Sean Watkins  50:16

Thank you very much, Bethaney, I greatly, greatly greatly appreciate before we go, I did want to say, I want to say that the beginning and this slipped my mind. But I want to say the into this book is phenomenal. Like I was blown away by it. I'm sure you know, and doing the work, we are just we are oversaturated are inundated with resources and diversity, equity and inclusion. And so and we get them all the time to be the bridge, I'm sure you get them as well to everything from endorsements to reading these things. And so we got your book in the mail. And I remember, thanks for sending it to and we got it in the mail, and I read the cover and then. So let me take off the table of contents real quick. All right, let me just kind of outline the wait a minute, she's got something to say! Like I was it's just absolutely phenomenal the ways in which you're able to name those realities in those frameworks. It is you take these these very deep and complex issues, but you communicate them in a way that so palatable for people across the diaspora and across organizations and cultures. I use your content in our main trainings, I tell people to be able to use it as a resource. We're actually I've already told our director of marketing, it needs to be on our website as a recommended resource for people. It really is outstanding. And so I want to be able to commend you as a brother to a sister, I know that there are a lot of black men who are leading in this work in patriarchy is real. So I want to say you are doing a phenomenal job. I am following you and I'm very proud of the work that you are doing. This is an excellent resource. It's in my library and my co workers and friends and our clients. I'm going to make sure they use it as well too. So thank you for the opportunity to be here. And for this resource. I think it really is phenomenal.

Bethaney Wilkinson  51:48

Oh wow. Thank you. Thank you.