Bias in Our Bodies with Shawn Duncan
Episode Summary: In Episode 5 of The Diversity Gap Podcast, you get to hear from Shawn Duncan, one of the speakers from the first ever Diversity Gap live event held in April of 2019. In this talk, Shawn unpacks what it means to have bias in our bodies, despite our good intentions for diversity and inclusion.
Dr. Shawn Duncan is the Director of The Lupton Center (offering training and consulting services to nonprofits looking for healthier and more effective ways to respond to material poverty.) He is on the Collaboration Team for the Center for Racial Equity and Inclusion (at North Park University). His writing on neighboring cross-culturally is featured in the book Joining Lives: (A Primer on Reconciliation).
Episode Notes: Learn about The Lupton Center
The Diversity Gap is a two-year exploration into the gap between good intentions and good impact. You can learn more at www.thediversitygap.com. You can also follow along on Instagram @thediversitygap or on Facebook!
Need help processing today’s podcast? Head over to www.theDiversityGap.com to find a conversation guide with definitions and questions for reflection.
Transcript
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, deal, shawn, question, mindfulness, white, diversity, organizations, shame, whiteness, conversation, vulnerability, optics, thinking, world, feel, organizational, talking, work, bodies
SPEAKERS
Bethaney Wilkinson, Shawn Duncan
Bethaney Wilkinson 00:00
Hi there, Bethaney here. For this episode of The Diversity Gap podcast, I am incredibly excited to share with you a talk that my good friend Shawn Duncan gave at the first ever Diversity Gap live event in April of this year 2019. We held the event at the Red Bull offices here in Atlanta, Georgia. And it was such a fun night of learning and storytelling. As you listen to Shawn's talk, pay close attention to the stories he tells he really took the time to capture how our passion for diversity often falls short in our daily encounters with people who are unlike us. It's super rich, I hope you enjoy. Welcome to the diversity gap podcast where we are exploring the gap between good intentions and good impact as it relates to diversity, equity and inclusion. My name is Bethaney Wilkinson and I am your host. Um, so our first presenter, his name is Shawn. And he and I, we met, we were trying to remember, we met many years ago now I think I was still in my urban farming phase, which is a story for another time. And and I saw him speak at an event on reimagining charity. And then somehow later, we got coffee. And I literally left that meeting thinking, I think he's one of the wisest humans I've ever talked to, like, he's so wise. I was definitely like, 2324 Oh, they're a little older, okay. Full of Wisdom. Um, but no, I was like, he's so wise. And he's so self aware. And he's so humble. And he's doing such good work. And he's currently the director of the Lupton Center, which helps nonprofits think through how to more effectively serve those who are experiencing material poverty. And so this is just gonna be really great. Give a round of applause to Shawn Duncan.
Shawn Duncan 02:08
Appreciate the opportunity to be a part of anything that Bethany is doing, I have an immense amount of trust in her and I can't imagine anybody better suited to lead this work that she's leading. And so as we're thinking about this conversation around building organizations, and organizational cultures and teams that deal with this diversity gap, and deal with equity and inclusion, I want to, on the one hand affirm the difficult and important work it takes to do that organizational stuff. But I actually want to invite us more to consider that to do the organizational part well, especially for my majority culture, friends in the room, that really depends upon our willingness to do the internal work to get there. There are a lot of moves and decisions that have to be made. When we're talking about empowerment, and inclusion and hearing voices and leadership, all of that I want to say yes to figuring all of those dynamics out within our teams and organizations. But unless the majority culture, people are willing to do the really hard, honest, speaking of Brene, brown, vulnerable work, of dealing with our own biases, the organizational stuff is not going to work. Because the goal is not having the right numbers in the right places. That's actually important. But that's not the end goal. Right? That symptom may be. The goal, in my mind is that this is that we have created, we've co created a liberating culture, for people to be a part of where we all feel free to be who we fully are, in our context. And I would say from what I've learned from minority people that I've worked with is that when they are working in majority lead companies, organizations or churches that have diversity on staff, there's got to hold back a bit of who I am, because I'm not really sure if it's safe for me to be who I am. And so on the outside, you can say, hey, that church, that organization, that business that fill in the blank, has done the hard organizational work to get people in the right places. But when people still aren't free to be who they fully are at the table, then to me that represents that the white leaders in the room have not been doing the personal work that they need to be doing to make the space what it ought to be. So used to live in Nashville, and it was in those days that I began to kind of be awakened to a real desire for equity inclusion Justice, reconciliation, all of these things were beginning to come into my vision like they hadn't before. But it wasn't until moving to Atlanta about 14 years ago, choosing to live kind of right on the border between Tucker and Clarkson, if you're familiar, that part of the city that I was kind of thrown into about 100, different language groups and anything and everything, right? Because when I was learning to value these ideas or concepts at one time, it was mostly in graduate school, where the classrooms were mostly white people, or the churches I would attend, were mostly white people. Well, the neighborhood I was living in was marginally diverse. So in my head, I was I was getting some thinking, right? And even in my heart, it was sincere, right? These weren't just generic academic ideas, like it was moving me at an emotional heart level. But I think if there's one lesson I want to offer, and this is more to white people in the room, is that that that bias lives in our bodies, that I thought that it was a matter of getting it in my head and in my heart. And if I did that work, then I could kind of navigate it and figure it out. And it would all just kind of click right. What I didn't understand was how long and how complicated the journey was, from dealing with the racial bias that is just so deep in me, it's a part of my body. And here's what I mean by that. I'll tell you a couple stories to maybe illustrate it. So there's a sidewalk path, not the Beltline that leads from Piedmont Park pass Clarkston to Stone Mountain, the better I've been on that one. So I was a lot less crowded if you want to give it a go sometime. Not as many alcoholic opportunities on that path either. So I'm riding my bike from Clarkston towards Stone Mountain and I'm just kind of caught up in my own world. And I happened to look up and like 3040 yards down the sidewalk. There's an African American man standing at the martyr stop. Really long dreads, dark shirt, baggy camo shorts, and I immediately felt afraid. Before I had any choice about that moment, fear came over me. And then just as immediate over me came a whole wealth of shame. I'm like, What the hell like what am I afraid of like I like had been riding with a friend. And we were talking about racial disparities in the world. I had been waxing eloquent about how we got to deal with Why are white people so afraid to ride their bikes in this area? Where Why are they all riding over there, not over here. This is perfectly safe, like we could complain and criticize all the white people for not riding their bikes in this area. But that's my head, right? That's my heart. And I'm not saying I'm insincere in either of those things. I'm just saying that, I've discovered that my bias is so much deeper than that. At a place where I can't control it with articulating what I really want to say, right? It goes beyond what inspires me or what burdens me it goes down into just who I am. So I have a choice to make fear comes over a shame comes over me and I'm riding a bike. So it's not very long before I'm passing this guy. So I just I make eye contact and a smile. And I give some sort of greeting, he makes eye contact right back smiles and says greeting back. Right. And immediately, in essence, the fear is rejected as the silliness that it was, though the shame stuck with me. Because I'm going like, How in the world? Is this possible? Right? So what I immediately started doing is running down all my credentials of why I'm one of the good ones, right? I'm not one of the white people that thinks this way, right? That I'm not that person, right? And so start going through all the things and I'm like, no, no, like, This is who I am, right? Like when we try to say, well, that's not me know, if you did that, if you felt that if you said that it is you and we have to deal with it. Right. So one other story, sitting in a classroom and a local seminary, roundtable conversation going on. We're actually talking about like, mission and engaging the city and these kinds of things. The student directly to my right, was sharing her thoughts on on the topic, and I found myself getting really impatient, getting annoyed that she wouldn't stop talking. So someone else could have the floor. And then I was like, Why? Why am I annoyed at this right now? This is why we're here. We're in a circle, right? We're supposed to all be sharing. Then it hits me first of all, she was uh, she Second of all, she had gray hair. Third of all, she was African American. I was like so ageism, sexism and racism. Ma'am, just winning this day. I'm doing so well right now. Like, like had anyone said hey, well, let's talk about ageism or sexism, racism. I would have totally been all in on Yes, it is so prevalent in the structure of our society and we've got to work to undo all of this and have been all in on that conversation. But my body is in a different place, right? That I'm physically reacting against her presence sitting next to me. And again, having all those feelings then lots of shame, right after that. I'm like, What is going on? I'm like, I'm open. Nobody can read this stuff on my face as I'm sitting here right now, cuz this is so embarrassing. So go home, and I process this with my wife. And I'm like, I have got to talk through this with you. And as hard as it was to like to say these things. First of all, I was talking to Bethany about this. And she's like, Yeah, you should share this with 100 people that you don't really know. I trust you a lot that I'm doing this right now. Right? You know, and just so no one ever said to me, in any point, my youth or adult life, you shouldn't listen to women, you shouldn't listen to people of color. You shouldn't listen to people with gray hair, right? Nobody ever kind of directly said that to me. But if I walked back through every voice I was supposed to listen to or follow. They were white man between the ages of 35 and 55. Right. That's the model that you listen to. And so I was growing annoyed that she was taking up space in the room. And it's, but that is right, that's so I can I thought if I just read enough, Baldwin or Coates or whatever, like I could get my head in the right place. If I participated, enough marches or conversations or relationships, my heart could get in the right place. And I'm saying yes to all of those things. And they are doing authentic work at the head and heart level. I'm not saying it's false. I'm just saying like, it's bias lives in our bodies. And we can do all the organizational work that we want. And we should, I'm not denying the importance of that. But if you are a white leader, and and you're not willing to do the deep internal hard work on yourself, you're going to one declare victory Tusen. And two, people of color will be the optics for your special project. And I'm guilty, right? I'm in this, so I'm speaking to you slightly elevated, but I on this write that it will always be a matter of optics, it will always be a matter of did we get the organizational pieces in the right place, it's got to be a part of who you are. So for what it's worth, how I'm trying to work transformation at the level of being in my body, because I don't believe it's just something that we just can't control. Like we can work transformation, that kind of level, within ourselves. So an offer you two words that are helpful for me in this regard, you probably have others, feel free to chase them. But these have been the two for me. One is mindfulness, paying attention to what's going on inside of you, and being able to think outside of your thoughts for a moment and name them for what they are. Right. And then you can choose to act against them. When I saw that gentleman at Marta stop, I felt fear, but I could choose to act counter to what that fear told me and it dealt with it, which means the next time I'm riding my bike, that fear, if it's there, it's not as strong. And eventually it's not going to be there anymore, right? That there's a long, hard work that requires that to be done. So being mindful of what you're dealing with. Because here's the deal. If you're a white leader, and you're making the organizational moves that you need to be making, there still will be a time that your whiteness is going to be called out. At least if you created enough safe space for people to be honest with you, your whiteness is going to get called out and everything inside of you is going to want to defend yourself, right? And list all of your credentials and why you're one of the good ones. And why this isn't about race and why this isn't about whatever. If you can practice mindfulness, you can feel all that need to defend yourself and say, You know what? That's that's false. That's a lie that's unhelpful. It's destructive? Can I ask questions and just shut up for a little bit and figure out what's going on. Right? So mindfulness, really important. And the second one would just be vulnerability. It's all about Brene. Brown, you watch this Netflix special, and we're all under Les Brown now. That you've got to have people, hopefully not 100 or more in a room of mostly strangers, but you need to have at least one or two, where you can sit in that classroom. Feel that frustration that an older woman of color is taking up space and somebody that you can say, I have to tell you about how embarrassed I am about this, but this Evidently, this is who I am because I'd love to say oh, that's not me. That was just a I was tired and hungry or over caffeinated. No, that's me if I felt that it is me, and I gotta gotta deal with that. And you've got to have people that you can be in that level of kind of raw, honest conversations with so bias goes beyond our hearts and our minds, it lives in our bodies. And if we want to create truly liberating cultures We got to do the hard personal work, which is gonna require some mindfulness and vulnerability. Thanks for your time. Appreciate it
Bethaney Wilkinson 15:22
Okay, we have time to take a couple of questions from the audience for Shawn. Yeah, Spacey. I'm gonna repeat her question for the audience. What do you do shine to fellowship and connect with other white males around this issue and topic.
Shawn Duncan 15:39
One being introverted, I try to avoid fellowshipping with people in general. And I've come to a point in my racism journey that white men are the people I trust the least at this point. So I've got a rounded back around that, that I've got to deal with some stuff there. No. So part of it is cultivating friendships where I feel like the vulnerability piece can be there. Right? So at some level, especially since my relational capacities fairly low, just testing out like, Are these people that this is going to be there other facades in this? Or this? Is there a way that we can just really enter into just the vulnerable stuff of life? And are there some shared values that we have in the world? And can we can we get at things at that level? And just, yeah, just valuing just time spent that's less event driven, or things that go do bit more, build a fire in the backyard or go out for a drink? And just kind of be that that kind of level? Thank you
Bethaney Wilkinson 16:41
secure? The question is, when it comes to dealing with shame, is it the same around the topic of race and difference as it is for every other area in your life? Like if you have the tools you got them? Or are there distinct challenges in managing those negative emotions related to race?
Shawn Duncan 16:56
Is there a good question? Because I have, this is part of the mindfulness of vulnerability stuff comes into play. If you have good conversation partners that help you do the mindfulness work through the vulnerable conversations. You can deal with what that shame is about what what I don't want is kind of Jeff said, all the questions your mom would ask, I don't need a mom that just you know, Pat's on the back and says, like, Oh, you didn't mean it, it's okay. I don't need that friend, I need the friend. And also not interested impacting further same, but saying, like, what does that shame about and sometimes, for me, to be honest, it's just like, I don't want to be that kind of person. And so it's more about ego and image and the kind of facade I want to construct in the world instead of being my true self. And so it's a lot of it bound up in that. And so being able to walk through that and getting to a place to where it's not really about shame, it's just about this honest moment of awareness of where I am on this journey, and what am I going to do to keep walking it? So those conversation, people are really crucial in that, in that journey? I think
Bethaney Wilkinson 17:59
I'm going to ask my question, since I have the mic. Um, so you are a white leader who leads an organization that does a lot of work cross culturally. So you're, I'm assuming that you're thinking through things not just on an interpersonal level, but to some extent, on an organizational level. And so I'm wondering what intentional choices you've had to make, as a white leader to I don't know, create a healthy culture, not that it's done perfectly. But to begin to create a healthy, where the people on your team and the people you're serving feel respected and dignified and empowered? It's a big question.
Shawn Duncan 18:34
It is, and I have very few answers for that. So that's good for our time. Yeah. One, that it will always be a thing I don't, I don't think they'll ever be a point to where I'll be past the responsibility of dealing with it and thinking about it. Or to if we have clients whose is this is being recorded. Okay, clients, his whiteness is a little stronger than some other clients. It means after work, we're gonna go have a drink, am I right? We're gonna we're gonna go we're gonna go have white white people recovery time, I guess I don't know what maybe we should call that call that something. I'm not sure. But just being sensitive to what this work does to like it, it feels different to me, like I can be on the phone with that one group that just doesn't even hear themselves say the kind of things that they're saying. And I'm like, and I can roll my eyes and move on. But that hits people on our team differently than it's going to hit me. And so giving space to that, but definitely saying that, like, if there's any one issue that most organizations are least paying attention to it is this like, their, if they recognize their way of responding to poverty is not effective. They just want the effective way of responding. I'm like, well, until you deal with the relational dynamics that you've created, both in your organization and with the people that you're trying to serve. An effective model is not ever going to exist, right? It's not just about the model. It is about But that's that's secondary. Right? That's, that's down the line. But yeah, it'll never be done. I think this is, this is the long haul.
Bethaney Wilkinson 20:08
Thanks, Shawn. Thanks. Gosh, bias in our bodies. That line has stuck with me for months now and I hope it challenged you. One question I love for us all to reflect on in light of what Shawn shared is, what internal work do we need to be doing as leaders in order to create liberating cultures? Oftentimes, we settle for metrics and optics. But what is the deep work of personal transformation that we must do to become the kind of people who can truly see and empower others? Thank you for listening to The Diversity Gap podcast. If you've been challenged or inspired by what you've heard, please rate and review the show. You can also subscribe to make sure you never miss an episode. If you have thoughts or questions I'd love to hear from you connect with me at thediversitygap.com or on Instagram at The Diversity Gap. This episode was produced by DJ opdiggy for Soul Graffiti Productions